OnlyBucs

I agree with this. I often lament the salaries of professional athletes, especially baseball players, but the economics of the game are what they are. I've defended this regime, but the reality is that they either can't, or won't, pay market rate for talent.



The way I see it, this breaks down three ways:

1. The Nuttings themselves can't pay market rate.

2. The market size is such that it can't sustain ANY owner who may otherwise be able to pay market rate.

3. The Nuttings won't pay market rate.



If they can't themselves, then they need to sell to an owner who can out of integrity. In other sectors of the economy, companies compete on uneven playing fields all the time, and that's fine. Every tech start-up doesn't have to compete with Apple. But, no one sits around at a bar watching CNBC and cheering when the ticker says, "Apple +1.53...Small start-up tech company +.01." In the business of baseball, part of the business is necessarily doing everything possible to put a winning team on the field. They owe that to the fans.



Now, I realize that another owner may come in and realize the same reality, that they can't pay market rates, not as result of their own bottom line, but as a result of the market size. (First, I don't think any of us buy that, but let's just go with it.) If Mark Cuban, say, bought the team tomorrow, he isn't going to buy the team to lose money. Even though Cuban theoretically could afford a $1 billion payroll, let's say, that doesn't mean that he would do that. In other words, perhaps the Nuttings are right...perhaps the city can only sustain a salary around where it is right now. If that's the case, then MLB needs to step in. This should have been negotiated in the CBA. It is not in the best interest of the game to have fans in all but ten or so cities knowing that their team has no shot at a championship. Again, I don't think this is the case. But if it is, MLB needs to step in.



Finally, if they simply won't pay market rate, then see above. MLB needs to step in. It seems like a precedent has been set to this end with respect to Oakland in the last CBA. It sure sounds to me like MLB is saying to the powers that be in Oakland, "Look. You're in a major market. Your pockets are deep enough. You don't need revenue sharing money." Perhaps it's time they do that to Pittsburgh. It may wind up helping us in the long run.



I would equate it to saying to the able-bodied guy on welfare who just sits around his house all day letting other people support him that it's time to get a job. This may be MLB's way of telling Oakland (and potentially others) that it's time to put up or shut up.

4A4241766045626D030 wrote: I agree with this.  I often lament the salaries of professional athletes, especially baseball players, but the economics of the game are what they are.  I've defended this regime, but the reality is that they either can't, or won't, pay market rate for talent.



The way I see it, this breaks down three ways:

1.  The Nuttings themselves can't pay market rate.

2.  The market size is such that it can't sustain ANY owner who may otherwise be able to pay market rate.

3.  The Nuttings won't pay market rate.



If they can't themselves, then they need to sell to an owner who can out of integrity.  In other sectors of the economy, companies compete on uneven playing fields all the time, and that's fine.  Every tech start-up doesn't have to compete with Apple.  But, no one sits around at a bar watching CNBC and cheering when the ticker says, "Apple +1.53...Small start-up tech company +.01."  In the business of baseball, part of the business is necessarily doing everything possible to put a winning team on the field.  They owe that to the fans.



Now, I realize that another owner may come in and realize the same reality, that they can't pay market rates, not as result of their own bottom line, but as a result of the market size.  (First, I don't think any of us buy that, but let's just go with it.)  If Mark Cuban, say, bought the team tomorrow, he isn't going to buy the team to lose money.  Even though Cuban theoretically could afford a $1 billion payroll, let's say, that doesn't mean that he would do that.  In other words, perhaps the Nuttings are right...perhaps the city can only sustain a salary around where it is right now.  If that's the case, then MLB needs to step in.  This should have been negotiated in the CBA.  It is not in the best interest of the game to have fans in all but ten or so cities knowing that their team has no shot at a championship.  Again, I don't think this is the case.  But if it is, MLB needs to step in.



Finally, if they simply won't pay market rate, then see above.  MLB needs to step in.  It seems like a precedent has been set to this end with respect to Oakland in the last CBA.  It sure sounds to me like MLB is saying to the powers that be in Oakland, "Look.  You're in a major market.  Your pockets are deep enough.  You don't need revenue sharing money."  Perhaps it's time they do that to Pittsburgh.  It may wind up helping us in the long run.



I would equate it to saying to the able-bodied guy on welfare who just sits around his house all day letting other people support him that it's time to get a job.  This may be MLB's way of telling Oakland (and potentially others) that it's time to put up or shut up.


Let me simply say I agree with this. Completely. Last winter was my day of reckoning. Unless something dramatic changes this winter, there are going to be a lot of longtime and very loyal Pirate fans suddenly feeling foolish and fleeced. Not a good business model.



I suggest Mr Nutting sale before a great value that he is mostly responsible for is destroyed.

When FC recently said that he finds it offensive that Pirate fans believe that the organization is putting profit over trying to win championships. I find it offensive that they have not proved that we are wrong.



Tell me why the Pirates continue to rank in the bottom 5 in payroll yet are in the middle in terms of attendance and revenue!



According to Forbes Nutting has realized a net gain of over 600 million in franchise appreciation.



The Pirates most certainly can afford to pay an average ML Payroll.

Which is now probably around 150-160 million. Yet they refuse to do so.



I want to know why?

363D35393C3D266365122B333A3D3D7C313D520 wrote: Glasnow, Brault, Duncan, Williams, Kingham, Hutchison, and Kulh (off the top of my head) can all make impacts. 



There are some young guys in AA like Dickson, Eppler, and  Waddell too.  They were all pretty high picks. 


I'm talking about good impact, not mediocre impact.  Hutchinson is terrible.  There is simply nothing you can say to convince me he is good. Kuhl is the only name, maybe Glasnow if he figures it out, that can provide some sort of impact.  I have a totally different definition of impact then you do. Brault is nothing more than a mediocre five to me.



The AA guys won't have the type of impact I want to see. It doesn't matter if they were high picks or not.



This rotation is going to be terrible.

775150475141320 wrote: ml trade rumor chat answer today was they expect the Pirates to sign some low end pitcher.



basically said that is all the Pirates can afford to do and fans should get used to it.  No way that ownership would raise the payroll to a 140 million and lose money.



Personally, I am at the stage where I expect NH to put a winner on the field this year.  If he can't do it then he should be fired or resign.  Another team will hire him and most likely pay him more. Upon resigning NH should tell ownership (hopefully he is already telling them this in private) that without a larger payroll it is nearly impossible to put together a well above average team that can contend for championships.



If the best management team in baseball can't successfully navigate a bridge year (and turn into at least a 2 year bridge project) than maybe they aren't the best or aren't the right fit for Pirates circumstances.










This is clearly the MO of this franchise. They don't want to put out a good product. They want to make money and that is the primary goal.



Another reclamation, garbage, low end arm for the rotation. Shocker.



Two years ago, we were a legit organization heading in the right direction. Had 98 wins. We needed to add a piece to make up for the losses of AJB and Happ. Instead, we brought in crap ... and the product on the field wasn't good.



Very disappointing but typical. I thought the cheap owner supposedly gave NH the go ahead to bring in something other than a crap arm for the rotation. Obviously, that was a lie, or a false rumor.

113437372209343C3E295B0 wrote: When FC recently said that he finds it offensive that Pirate fans believe that the organization is putting profit over trying to win championships. I find it offensive that they have not proved that we are wrong.



Tell me why the Pirates continue to rank in the bottom 5 in payroll yet are in the middle in terms of attendance and revenue!



According to Forbes Nutting has realized a net gain of over 600 million in franchise appreciation.



The Pirates most certainly can afford to pay an average ML Payroll.

Which is now probably around 150-160 million. Yet they refuse to do so.



I want to know why?




I don't know that the franchise appreciate argument is valid in this discussion. You are probably correct in the huge appreciation of the investment, but that isn't money that he pockets now. It doesn't become available until he sells. And he only makes the money if he finds someone to actually pay that much money for the franchise.



There was an interesting article about this topic on Pirates Prospects today. I'm still digesting it. Something that was surprising was where the Pirates payroll was in relationship to other small market teams last year, over the last 5 years, and over the last 17 years. The Pirates very much have been in the middle to top half of small market teams (a designation placed on them by MLB that has incentives in the system recognizing the weakened position the operate from). Based on the level of frustration in this fanbase, one would think they were under spending their market size by tens of millions. The opposite is true. They sit very much in the pack of similarly placed markets.



The other interesting take away was that there are a ton of teams within 15 million of the Pirates. The Pirates spent $100 million last year. The Reds spent $115 million. There are 8 teams between them. None of those teams made the playoffs last year. The team behind them in payroll did make the playoffs (Indians).



There were some other thought provoking numbers in the article. I don't want to share too much out of respect for the author and the fact that it is a pay site. One particular take away that I strongly agree with is that due to the lack of key financial information, it his hard to have a legit conversation about these things.

At Pirate Fest Coonelly referenced how the Pirates payroll has increased from $45M to $100M as a response to questions about payroll spending. Over that time the Pirates went from 26th in the league in payroll spending to 25th. Basically the Pirates haven't changed their payroll spending relative to the league even when an opportunity to go for a championship presented itself. Financial flexibility is what matters most to the Nutting ownership.



In addition, the franchise appreciation is a valid consideration. Anyone who has ever taken a home equity loan to finance something knows that borrowing against appreciated value in a home (or business) can be an excellent way (with interest rates at all-time lows) to get a cash infusion for immediate improvements (a swimming pool, a World Series championship, etc.).

IMHO, Nutting had the best of intentions when he took over the franchise. He wanted to build a winner in a small market and went about it smartly using the draft and looking for bargains such as reclamation projects. They signed Russell Martin coming off a terrible year offensively when his value was down. They traded prospects for Burnett coming off 2 bad years in NY and the Yankees paid most of his salary as a Pirate. The plan was working like a charm and even resulted in the 2nd most wins in MLB in 2015. But then it became obvious that further, more expensive additions would be needed to take the team even further. And that's where the plan hit the wall.



We're now looking at a franchise that squanders the talent it assembled by refusing to increase an already low payroll to make the significant additions needed. It was fine for the FO to talk about building a championship team when they were still assembling the talent on a low payroll. But now that some of those players have been around long enough to accrue higher salaries and the areas of need are obvious and will cost more than rookies or reclamation projects, they seem to be stuck in "bridge year" mode. To their credit, they did the best they could on a small budget but there seems to be no plan beyond that. Maybe they'll amaze with a strong, low cost "Kiddie Corps" pitching staff. But barring that unlikely result, the march toward a championship seems to be on hold.

The team has been continually making contract commitment to it's players to ensure they stay in Pittsburgh. (McCutchen, Marte, Polanco, Cervelli & Harrison). There are never going to be significant additions from FA, especially now with the massive cash infusion. It's going to be a slow process at times and the primary goal to maintain competitive is to keep bad contracts off the books. That basically means no large FA contracts because those have the highest likliehood of bad years tacked on to the end of the deals.



But their plan requires them to build and maintain a top farm system. I think the trades this past trade deadline also had a bit to do with an upcoming 40 man roster crunch (dealing Tarpley, Polo, McGuire and Ramirez). I'm pretty sure that the new CBA fixed the broken Intl system which had a built in incentive for teams with money to spend as much as possible in a given year, that probably explains why the Pirates were on the sideline (outrageous prospect prices, teams were spending massive amounts on the same prospect pools), but are now in a strong position to compete for top Intl talent in the upcoming years.



tldnr; I have no problem with their tact, there's no window for this team that they need to sell out to win in. They had a down year, but spending money wouldn't have changed that much. Last I checked the Dodgers haven't done **** with the billions they spent. And Cubs won despite that Heyward contract.

The Cubs went over 100 years without winning. Now that they won, they are the best franchise ever. The Dodgers haven't won since 1988 and are always one of the highest payrolls.



I want the Pirates to add a Starting Pitcher. The Pirates need to add a Starting Pitcher. Huntington said this is a priority and he is in talks with 8-12 players.



Other than that, the payroll is low because players were extended at good rates. They don't need to fill in big holes.



The last position player free agent was Kang. Would people be happier if they spent more than $4 million a year on him? They have a bargain right now. Most of their players are bargains. This is a good thing.



When a pitcher was needed, they signed Liriano. Is there another Liriano out there? Doesn't really look like it, but they need to find one. The payroll won't increase that much if they do. One Starter can do a lot for this team, but payroll won't be around $140 million. Smart money has already been spent.