OnlyBucs

1C382C24214D0 wrote: No, I understand. I just don't agree. The Pirates signed a top free agent pitcher, but now fans are mad he was so cheap. I have said my opinion many times. I understand the Pirates plan (and they are following exactly what I have said).



This post is about having Nova or Liriano. What you don't understand is that my opinion on this poll is in the majority yet you single me out.



Yes, I do keep asking about Happ and no one is answering that question. People just answer that question with another question. The argument for Happ is the opposite to keep Liriano. Yet, mostly everyone wanted Happ based on his small sample size, but a few don't want Nova.  Nova has had a better few years before joining the Pirates than Happ did.



I know what Liriano did for the Pirates. He was great. But he was awful last year and I wouldn't take the chance on him in the future. I wonder why the Giants gave up on Lincecum? Eventually, players lose their skill. Liriano needed a league change, something new.
It's a matter of consistency. Throughout his career, Liriano has been consistently inconsistent. The good far outweighed the bad until last year when at age 32 the bad that previously was on display only occasionally became more consistent than the good. Happ became consistently good after working with Searage. The Pirates put a lot of stock in Searage's ability to improve pitchers so there was no reason to believe the consistency Happ showed after being acquired was a SSS fluke, which was proven when he went 20-4 last year. Like Happ, Nova significantly improved after working with Searage (who Nova cited in his decision to re-sign). Maybe, the FO learned that they shouldn't doubt Searage and that when he substantially improves a pitcher, it doesn't suddenly go away. So they let Happ walk but kept Nova.




A year ago during free agency, I saw the offer by Toronto for Happ and I said, see you dude.  I didn't trust Happ to duplicate what he did with Pittsburgh, or even come close.  I hate to use the term fluke, but I thought it was.  He proved me wrong this year.


I also thought that the deal Happ got with Toronto was an overpayment. I felt there was enough doubt as to whether he could continue to pitch at the level (or even close to it) he did for the Pirates that it wasn't a reasonable risk given the Pirates tight budget. What I didn't expect was that after dumping Charlie Morton's salary that the big FA signing for the rotation would be Ryan Vogelsong. At the time they signed Vogelsong I reconsidered the Happ signing and felt that it actually was well worth the risk given the resulting alternative of a washed-up 38 year old.



Dog- I don't know of anyone who is mad because Nova signed on the cheap. Maybe his agent, but no Pirate fan in their right mind would be upset by the relatively low cost of the signing.   




I don't blame Pittsburgh for dumping Morton at all. He was a liability. I didn't like the dumping only to bring in Vogelsong. However, this is the Pirates and how they operate. Dump contract, bring in washed up cheap vet.

So searage gets credit for Novas 10 games, but not lirianos bad 3 months... who he got credit for the past 3 good years?



Good results = coach

Bad results later from same players =player



Religious zealots

Has anyone read or heard anything they consider somewhat credible about Liriano and his last season here regarding his behavior or attitude? I recall reading quite some time ago that he was disturbing the team, or something to that effect. I didn't see anyone argue for or against that at that time. It's been months now, and I still haven't read any more about that. I've finally decided to bring it up myself rather than wait any longer to see if someone asserts something again.



It seems odd to me, and apparently everyone, that we wanted rid of Liriano so quickly and so much that we were willing to part with prospects to do so. Was it simply money + lack of performance, or was there something else going on with him and the coaching staff, or in the clubhouse?

I'm pretty certain there was some behind the scenes stuff going on between Liriano and the Pirates, but I'm not sure exactly what. I do know that he 'randomly' decided to do a post-game interview in Spanish with a translator right before the trade, which I thought was an odd coincidence. Who knows?

Interesting line by John Sickels from the comment section on his Pirates prospect writeup.



"Reese McGuire and Harold Ramirez



Where would they have ranked had they been in the system? It’s very clear that their stocks have fallen. How far?

Posted by Seth Harris on Jan 3, 2017 | 9:32 AM

dunno....haven't looked at them recently. But i can't imagine they would be very high

Posted by John Sickels on Jan 3, 2017 | 12:55 PM"

1C213F323D373C1E3621303637530 wrote: Interesting line by John Sickels from the comment section on his Pirates prospect writeup.



"Reese McGuire and Harold Ramirez



Where would they have ranked had they been in the system? It’s very clear that their stocks have fallen. How far?

Posted by Seth Harris on Jan 3, 2017 | 9:32 AM

dunno....haven't looked at them recently. But i can't imagine they would be very high

Posted by John Sickels on Jan 3, 2017 | 12:55 PM"


Are you trying to say that McGuire was a lousy pick when we drafted him?    a  AA, 21 year old defensively-gifted catcher who walked more than he struck out but can't drive the baseball (yet, maybe ever).  And had injury last year.



What did we get for him again, you know, the first round 14th pick with the fat first round signing bonus?  Oh that's right.  We got absolutely NOTHING for him.   He helped us with the privilege of unloading a year and a half Toronto's #3 starter. 



"Good value! Heck of a trade Neal. Keep up the good work" - Bob Nutting

Yeah, stock fallen or not, getting zippo for him isn't very acceptable.



If they wanted to rid of liriano that badly I have to assume someone would have taken him on waivers.

If they traded him two years ago they would have gotten something.  The fact that he was able to be used to facilitate a salary dump was probably based on that 1st round draft pick status.



I'm saying he's not worth anything, he was trending towards 1st round bust.



I guess I would just say that there's one piece to the Liriano trade to complain about.  The choice to dump Liriano as opposed to trying to use the second half of 2016 to get him right and set up to productive again in 2017.  There's definitely reason to think he'll be worth that $13M this year.  It seems like with McGuire and Ramirez, they have some value as former top prospects in the system, but they are guys who will have decreasing value as their ceilings continue to shrink.



Prospects are prospects because of projection, there's their ceiling potential combined with their likelihood of reaching that ceiling.  If the ceiling piece shrinks (as it's doing for both of those guys, Ramirez a fringe 4th OF and McGuire a no hit backup catcher), then they're not prospects, just organization depth.  The only reason these guys can even be part of a trade is because of their former status as valuable prospects.

Let me see if I have this straight:



* Pirates can't trade prospects to improve their team because they are the lifeblood of small market teams and would negatively impact their ability to compete in the future.



* In an economy where small market teams can't compete financially....prospects have even more value to the Pirates than most.



* Unloading their most precious commodities is acceptable because Liriano was terrible for 4 months.



* Pirates are counting on prospects to become productive players and simply by many fans being familiar with their names....assume they are viable candidates.



* Most prospects will pan out.



* Its was perfectly acceptable to trade Ramirez and McGuire because they likely weren't going to pan out.



* It's perfectly acceptable to have a back of the rotation consist of some combination of Kuhl, Duncan, Baurault and Williams because most prospects pan out.

We were told a few times how that trade went down. Not sure why it is still being twisted around?



Yes, McGuire was probably worth more two years ago. He was declining, not improving. He is still young. But he is on pace to be a 1st round bust. If you don't hit, you aren't going to make it. I hope he pans out. Catchers are tough to find, but he has to improve.



The last first round catcher didn't pan out either. It happens. I am not saying McGuire won't pan out, but he still has work to do. He has time.