2024 Off-Season Thread

[Surgnbuck]

Well, this is a longshot. But, hear me out. There hasn't been much turnover at all, mostly replacing a bit piece with a bit piece. I don't have the time to hunt down every possible interview I've seen a clip of or blurb I heard on the radio. Primarily, it was Skenes, Cutch, and Jones that I recall all of them basically saying the same thing, that they were the ones that blew it. All three of them seemed to almost bristle at the thought the team couldn't win with the core group that has been assembled since BC took over. They all seem to rally behind Shelton.

Maybe it's possible that, perhaps the guys who talked about it's time to be a leader, approached management and asked them to not go out and get high priced dudes. The players that have come up over the last couple of years have all talked about how tight of a group they are, the culture that has been built. Maybe they feel they deserve to prove they do have the chops.

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0JNyZH3Jgw I remember how all of the guys were almost like waiting for each other to be there together to be winners. Kind of like when a friend or a relative dies, and someone always says, "now they'll get to see all their friends and family in heaven."

I know it's just a shot in the dark, but perhaps BC, Shelton, pretty much all the main management are willing to put their jobs on the line and prove what they put together can win, that the semi-collapses were just flukes, that the cratering of guys like Bednar, Holderman, Hayes, Suwinski, Davis, and Bae (along with the departed MAT and Rowdy) will prove to be complete misrepresentations of their abilities, and they'll bring it this year.

I know from hearing and seeing some of the interviews, that it was noticeable how much they bristled about being asked pointed questions about bringing in guys because of the pitching the team appears to have.

I know the players don't make personnel decisions. But maybe there is something to this thought. They know the vast majority of them aren't going to be around long. But they want the reason to be because they excelled, and priced themselves into a new stratosphere, not because they were failures. You bring in a few free agents on big contracts, who's going to play? We've seen what happens when they bring in someone who doesn't perform to the level they were expected, most notably Vogelbach and Tellez. They still keep getting the playing time. Which means, these young guys, the ones who have so much to prove, sit the bench, or play in Indy.

I don't have the data to back me up, but it's my perception that BC has done one thing remarkably different from his predecessor, and that's promote guys and get guys up here. BC has put a lot of faith in his draftees and acquisitions, and I think to a man, they feel it's time they rewarded the faith he had in them. Maybe BC has told Nutting what he probably loves hearing, "We're going to win with these guys, and it's not going to cost you. If I'm wrong, you can fire me, and hire someone cheaper". We know Shelton is probably on the last year of his contract, and I get the feeling it coincides with BC's. However, the Pirates nor BC or DS have disclosed the actual lengths of their contracts.

If you think about it, this actually is a scenario that is quite likely, because especially with Cherington, if he succeeds it puts him in high demand, and the same goes with Shelton.

Let's Go Bucs.

[bucs607179]

I see Adam Frazier will don a Buc uniform. Meh.

I believe 1.5 million

[Doc]

Well, this is a longshot. But, hear me out. There hasn't been much turnover at all, mostly replacing a bit piece with a bit piece. I don't have the time to hunt down every possible interview I've seen a clip of or blurb I heard on the radio. Primarily, it was Skenes, Cutch, and Jones that I recall all of them basically saying the same thing, that they were the ones that blew it. All three of them seemed to almost bristle at the thought the team couldn't win with the core group that has been assembled since BC took over. They all seem to rally behind Shelton.

Maybe it's possible that, perhaps the guys who talked about it's time to be a leader, approached management and asked them to not go out and get high priced dudes. The players that have come up over the last couple of years have all talked about how tight of a group they are, the culture that has been built. Maybe they feel they deserve to prove they do have the chops.

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0JNyZH3Jgw I remember how all of the guys were almost like waiting for each other to be there together to be winners. Kind of like when a friend or a relative dies, and someone always says, "now they'll get to see all their friends and family in heaven."

I know it's just a shot in the dark, but perhaps BC, Shelton, pretty much all the main management are willing to put their jobs on the line and prove what they put together can win, that the semi-collapses were just flukes, that the cratering of guys like Bednar, Holderman, Hayes, Suwinski, Davis, and Bae (along with the departed MAT and Rowdy) will prove to be complete misrepresentations of their abilities, and they'll bring it this year.

I know from hearing and seeing some of the interviews, that it was noticeable how much they bristled about being asked pointed questions about bringing in guys because of the pitching the team appears to have.

I know the players don't make personnel decisions. But maybe there is something to this thought. They know the vast majority of them aren't going to be around long. But they want the reason to be because they excelled, and priced themselves into a new stratosphere, not because they were failures. You bring in a few free agents on big contracts, who's going to play? We've seen what happens when they bring in someone who doesn't perform to the level they were expected, most notably Vogelbach and Tellez. They still keep getting the playing time. Which means, these young guys, the ones who have so much to prove, sit the bench, or play in Indy.

I don't have the data to back me up, but it's my perception that BC has done one thing remarkably different from his predecessor, and that's promote guys and get guys up here. BC has put a lot of faith in his draftees and acquisitions, and I think to a man, they feel it's time they rewarded the faith he had in them. Maybe BC has told Nutting what he probably loves hearing, "We're going to win with these guys, and it's not going to cost you. If I'm wrong, you can fire me, and hire someone cheaper". We know Shelton is probably on the last year of his contract, and I get the feeling it coincides with BC's. However, the Pirates nor BC or DS have disclosed the actual lengths of their contracts.

If you think about it, this actually is a scenario that is quite likely, because especially with Cherington, if he succeeds it puts him in high demand, and the same goes with Shelton.

Let's Go Bucs.

There's no doubt, Surge, that what you've described can happen. Plenty of times in baseball history a team has come out of nowhere and had an amazing season. With this pitching staff, the chances here improve. But with only Reynolds and perhaps IK-F as players who have proven themselves over time, the other six positions are still unknown. To wit:
Catcher - Bart was a really nice surprise last season. But it was an anomaly from what he had done before. Can he do it again?
1B - Horowitz might be a real find, but he has less than 400 ABs in the big leagues. We shouldn't be surprised if he struggles.
2B - I love Nick Gonzales. I think he's going to be really solid but, again, he's performed well for only about 3-4 months.
SS - IK-F is a solid player, but he's not a star at the position. He's steady, and he's not going to cost the team games.
3B - Hayes has shown he's completely unreliable, with the bat and with getting on the field regularly.
LF - Reynolds is really good in every way.
CF - Cruz has immense talent, he just can't be relied upon to use it. He's the laziest player I think I've ever seen.
RF - We don't even know who's going to play there.

On the other hand, as you suggest, a bunch of these guys may have really good years and have the team competing well into September. But it's asking a lot for all, or at least most, of them to become competitive major leaguers all at the same time. The team still lacks a couple of stars, the guys who carry a team, who opposing pitchers fear and end up working around, putting more guys on base. If the team had two guys like that, a lot of the pressure would be taken off the others. The Pirates could've added both Santander and Alonso and still had a payroll under $120 million, absolutely affordable for this owner.

I want all of what you hope for to happen, but wanting it doesn't make it so. I'll still root like heck for them but, after the past 10 years, my expectations are about as low as they can go.

[Bobster]

I'm anxious to see how Bart does this year. He was a good hitter in the minors and was impressive with the Bucs last season. Also looking forward to a full season of Gonzales. IKF is okay, Hayes can't be counted on and Horwitz seems to have a low ceiling. Right now, there's not even a 3rd OFer, much less depth if someone gets hurt (which they always do). We're counting heavily on the starting pitching, but things don't always go as planned. But there might be some AAA depth in that area. Reynolds is steady. Cruz can leave you in awe one day and furious the next. And, of course, Shelton seems to have a negative impact on the games. It would be great if they pleasantly surprise us. But I'm not optimistic.

[Ecbucs]

I'm anxious to see how Bart does this year. He was a good hitter in the minors and was impressive with the Bucs last season. Also looking forward to a full season of Gonzales. IKF is okay, Hayes can't be counted on and Horwitz seems to have a low ceiling. Right now, there's not even a 3rd OFer, much less depth if someone gets hurt (which they always do). We're counting heavily on the starting pitching, but things don't always go as planned. But there might be some AAA depth in that area. Reynolds is steady. Cruz can leave you in awe one day and furious the next. And, of course, Shelton seems to have a negative impact on the games. It would be great if they pleasantly surprise us. But I'm not optimistic.

last year they gave up 74 more runs than they scored and had a team ERA of 4.17. I could see pitching staff being a little better and perhaps getting ERA down to 3.90 and allowing 25 or 30 less runs this year. But it will still be a miracle if offense is good enough that the team scores more runs than it gives up. 2019 was last time the team scored over 700 runs in a season (of course they gave up over 900 that year)

[UtahPirate2]

Well, this is a longshot. But, hear me out. There hasn't been much turnover at all, mostly replacing a bit piece with a bit piece. I don't have the time to hunt down every possible interview I've seen a clip of or blurb I heard on the radio. Primarily, it was Skenes, Cutch, and Jones that I recall all of them basically saying the same thing, that they were the ones that blew it. All three of them seemed to almost bristle at the thought the team couldn't win with the core group that has been assembled since BC took over. They all seem to rally behind Shelton.

I think part of this youth mentality you suggest Surg is because of how many one-run games we were in last year. We seemed so close so often, and it was a meltdown of our bullpen that really led to most of the one-run losses. We did a poor job of holding late inning leads. Do the players think we are as close as you suggest? Most of what has been done this year seems to be to firm up our bullpen both on the MLB level and at AAA for depth. Cutch had a lot to say about what seems to be your assessment at Piratefest:

“This is a good ballclub,” McCutchen said on Saturday at PiratesFest, “and that’s what I saw when I was just sitting back watching (during his injury). I’m like, ‘Man, this is why I’m here. This is why I came back. This is what I see.’”

There’s a difference between a bad team and “a good team that puts itself in a bad situation.” The Pirates fell into that second group, as they struggled through the middle part of the season to regain the form they showed early.

“It’s just finding yourself, knowing who you are as a team, going out there and producing and putting it on the field,” McCutchen said. “Once you do that -- you know who you are and you go out there and you play that way -- man, the sky’s the limit for us.”

Maybe that's just normal Rah Rah speak. But I do have a certain trust in Cutch's veteran viewpoint.

We haven't done a lot beside bullpen moves, will a better bullpen be enough to get us to 86 or so wins and a playoff spot?

I would still like a RFer ...

[mouse]

The real test of this theory will be how many wins Surgnbuck and Utah predict for the year in the predictions thread.

[Ecbucs]

Well, this is a longshot. But, hear me out. There hasn't been much turnover at all, mostly replacing a bit piece with a bit piece. I don't have the time to hunt down every possible interview I've seen a clip of or blurb I heard on the radio. Primarily, it was Skenes, Cutch, and Jones that I recall all of them basically saying the same thing, that they were the ones that blew it. All three of them seemed to almost bristle at the thought the team couldn't win with the core group that has been assembled since BC took over. They all seem to rally behind Shelton.

I think part of this youth mentality you suggest Surg is because of how many one-run games we were in last year. We seemed so close so often, and it was a meltdown of our bullpen that really led to most of the one-run losses. We did a poor job of holding late inning leads. Do the players think we are as close as you suggest? Most of what has been done this year seems to be to firm up our bullpen both on the MLB level and at AAA for depth. Cutch had a lot to say about what seems to be your assessment at Piratefest:

“This is a good ballclub,” McCutchen said on Saturday at PiratesFest, “and that’s what I saw when I was just sitting back watching (during his injury). I’m like, ‘Man, this is why I’m here. This is why I came back. This is what I see.’”

There’s a difference between a bad team and “a good team that puts itself in a bad situation.” The Pirates fell into that second group, as they struggled through the middle part of the season to regain the form they showed early.

“It’s just finding yourself, knowing who you are as a team, going out there and producing and putting it on the field,” McCutchen said. “Once you do that -- you know who you are and you go out there and you play that way -- man, the sky’s the limit for us.”

Maybe that's just normal Rah Rah speak. But I do have a certain trust in Cutch's veteran viewpoint.

We haven't done a lot beside bullpen moves, will a better bullpen be enough to get us to 86 or so wins and a playoff spot?

I would still like a RFer ...

The teams record in one run games was 25-26. It just seems to me that almost every team we play this year is going to have a better offense unless some players improve significantly. We need Bart to hit like last year, Hayes to hit better than he has before, IFK, Reynolds and Cruz to do at least as well as last year in addition to having the starting pitching be strong and an improved bullpen. It can certainly happen but a lot of things need to go right. I am not even sure the moves made this off season have resulted in a better bullpen than last year. To have a better bullpen Bednar needs to pitch like in previous years, somebody (possibly two pitchers) make up for Chapman and others like Holderman, Nicholas, Mlodzinski need to do the same or improve. With 15 question marks it is doubtful all can work out to the plus. If you look at every other team in the division they have less questions about their squads than the Bucs.

[3pirates3]

https://x.com/A_Jude/status/1886495683919929633

https://triblive.com/sports/pirates-by- ... -of-depth/

[fjk090852-7]

I like the positive energy by Surge. If some of the young hitters such as Davis, and Suwinski become the hitters we have expected then they will help the lineup tremendously. I just think they may need a veteran offensive player who plays a few games a week, and can come off the bench to deliver that big hit. Another veteran pitcher would be preferable, but possibly the young pitchers such as Burrows can fill that need. At this time it doesn’t seem the Pirates will bring a veteran bat or pitcher on board.