OnlyBucs

352E23222B2728460 wrote: Possibly Tanner.



But, only for games that we won.  )
Tanner stunk 64 times in 1979! 


Yep.  What about the announcers?  There HAD to be at least one who stunk all of the time.  )))



Does Chuck's Stink Quotient happen to include the Pist-Season losses?  We must be precise with these things.


No, but he was really bad in some of those games. 


Sports (really, life in general) is kind of funny in so many ways.  A manager can'r win.   



I know a guy who's way tougher than I'll ever be.  When we win (as we did in 79)...he's been known to say that it wasn't by enough.  He'd go on an on about guys LOB, especially in scoring position. 



  Or, we should've won in 6 games, not 7.   Can't please everyvbody.     
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We need a scorecard to figure it out.  Apparently it is OK to criticize Shelton and Polanco.  But it is not OK to criticize Cherington because we have to wait and see?  Hasn't Cherington and Shelton been here about the same amount of time?  Why don't we have to wait and see with Shelton?


Because the criticism of Shelton and Polanco is very specific. And no one says you can't criticize Cherington. But do it intelligently. Recognize what he's doing and analyze that. But your criticism is mainly that he's not following the course you want him to follow. You tell us how bad he is because he's not building up the MLB roster even tho that is clearly not his focus this year. But you don't tell us how he conceivably could have built up the MLB roster so quickly with Nutting's financial constraints and the lack of talent in the farm system. And you tell us he's a failure because the GMs before him failed and therefore he's just kicking the can. And since he's focused on building up the minors, you make the case that he's doing it poorly by giving false information. When they got an A, an AA and a AAA (who had played for the Padres this year) player for Frazier you said it was for 3 suspect A players. Then you said it was for 3 utility players even tho one was a pitcher and one was an outfielder with power. But you wanted to make the trade look as bad as possible so you lied about the return. And when these things are pointed out to you you start crying that everyone else can complain but you're not allowed.



You're allowed. In fact many of us would love to hear some intelligent, legitimate criticisms from you since you are so adamant that Cherington is terrible. Enlighten us. But your criticisms are based on Cherington focusing on something other than what you want him to focus on. And on things you make up that aren't even true. You can't stand a rational comment like it's too soon to judge BC because his focus is on the minors so we'll have to wait and see. All that means is that he may turn out good or he may turn out bad but we don't know yet. But you need an immediate rush to judgment to deem him a failure based on the MLB team this year. And you hate that everyone won't join you in your irrational analysis. Criticism is fine. But back it up.
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I feel that my criticism of Cherington is very very specific, and the criticism of Shelton and Polanco is irrational.
Great comeback.
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Why thank you Bob.


Just once try to say something that doesn't sound like a 3rd grader.

Someone hired Shelton.  Someone is hs immediate superior.  The same person is Ben Cherington.  It might not be a bad hire, but I won't say that it was a good one.



The pitching hasn't been good.  Someone hired the pitching coach, who was a bullpen coach before he came to the Pirates.  That person was either directly or indirectly Ben Cherington.



The offense isn't good.  More given away than received.



The Run Differential is the worst in the business.  Pretty much is all the back up that I would need if someone else brought it up.



Someone traded Marte, Musgrove, Taillon, Bell, Frazier, Anderson (offset by acquiring him, too.)  Those trades have benefitted the other clubs more than they've benefitted the Pirates.  Had Huntington made such trades, he would have been villified for dumping them.



Kudos for the draft.  If they benefit the club as they're expected/hoped to do, won't be for at least two more seasons.  That, alone, is not enough to make me overlook the rest.



While I won't describe Cherington as 'terrible,' it gives me some apprehension, and I think that it's justified.  It's also not 'unfair.'  It's very much fair.

625740404B7240404B4C40250 wrote: Someone hired Shelton.  Someone is hs immediate superior.  The same person is Ben Cherington.  It might not be a bad hire, but I won't say that it was a good one.



The pitching hasn't been good.  Someone hired the pitching coach, who was a bullpen coach before he came to the Pirates.  That person was either directly or indirectly Ben Cherington.



The offense isn't good.  More given away than received.



The Run Differential is the worst in the business.  Pretty much is all the back up that I would need if someone else brought it up.



Someone traded Marte, Musgrove, Taillon, Bell, Frazier, Anderson (offset by acquiring him, too.)  Those trades have benefitted the other clubs more than they've benefitted the Pirates.  Had Huntington made such trades, he would have been villified for dumping them.



Kudos for the draft.  If they benefit the club as they're expected/hoped to do, won't be for at least two more seasons.  That, alone, is not enough to make me overlook the rest.



While I won't describe Cherington as 'terrible,' it gives me some apprehension, and I think that it's justified.  It's also not 'unfair.'  It's very much fair.


Weenie, I appreciate the reasoned response. I agree that hiring Shelton is not something Cherington should want on his resume. I don't know what to make of Marin. Most of the pitching staff probably has no business in MLB. So if Marin is a lousy pitching coach, it would be hard to tell at this point.



The MLB team is awful beyond a doubt. Bad offense, bad pitching, and well deserved run differential. And the trades did not improve the MLB roster for 2021. If BC was hired to turn the 2021 Pirates into contenders he should be tarred and feathered. But I think we all know that wasn't the case.



Shelton was interviewed recently and said he was told upon being hired that the priority this year was to add talent to the organization. Obviously, that has been BC's focus including the trades that added talent to the organization more than to the 2021 MLB roster. BC is following his own plan. It's not what some fans would prefer to see but if it pays off those same fans will be happy. I'm sure the FO want us to have faith that BC's plan will pay off. But I don't believe we have to have faith. Others have failed because of the same roadblock--Nutting. But just as we don't have to have faith BC will succeed, nor can we write him off as a failure already before he even gets around to focusing on the MLB roster. Which takes us back to the dreaded 'wait and see' attitude.

426F62737465723231000 wrote: Someone hired Shelton.  Someone is hs immediate superior.  The same person is Ben Cherington.  It might not be a bad hire, but I won't say that it was a good one.



The pitching hasn't been good.  Someone hired the pitching coach, who was a bullpen coach before he came to the Pirates.  That person was either directly or indirectly Ben Cherington.



The offense isn't good.  More given away than received.



The Run Differential is the worst in the business.  Pretty much is all the back up that I would need if someone else brought it up.



Someone traded Marte, Musgrove, Taillon, Bell, Frazier, Anderson (offset by acquiring him, too.)  Those trades have benefitted the other clubs more than they've benefitted the Pirates.  Had Huntington made such trades, he would have been villified for dumping them.



Kudos for the draft.  If they benefit the club as they're expected/hoped to do, won't be for at least two more seasons.  That, alone, is not enough to make me overlook the rest.



While I won't describe Cherington as 'terrible,' it gives me some apprehension, and I think that it's justified.  It's also not 'unfair.'  It's very much fair.


Weenie, I appreciate the reasoned response. I agree that hiring Shelton is not something Cherington should want on his resume. I don't know what to make of Marin. Most of the pitching staff probably has no business in MLB. So if Marin is a lousy pitching coach, it would be hard to tell at this point.



The MLB team is awful beyond a doubt. Bad offense, bad pitching, and well deserved run differential. And the trades did not improve the MLB roster for 2021. If BC was hired to turn the 2021 Pirates into contenders he should be tarred and feathered. But I think we all know that wasn't the case.



Shelton was interviewed recently and said he was told upon being hired that the priority this year was to add talent to the organization. Obviously, that has been BC's focus including the trades that added talent to the organization more than to the 2021 MLB roster. BC is following his own plan. It's not what some fans would prefer to see but if it pays off those same fans will be happy. I'm sure the FO want us to have faith that BC's plan will pay off. But I don't believe we have to have faith. Others have failed because of the same roadblock--Nutting. But just as we don't have to have faith BC will succeed, nor can we write him off as a failure already before he even gets around to focusing on the MLB roster. Which takes us back to the dreaded 'wait and see' attitude.


I hope that BC was given some sort of timeline to turn the team around. I don't like 5 year plans. Three years should be long enough to show good progress.

I would agee with most, if not all, of what you say here and Ster said above.



I get the sense that I'm more aggressive than others. I said from Day 1 that I'd like to see some form of roster improvement from the onset. Being the worst record in MLB at the time, I didn't think that should be terribly difficult.



But, it was impossible, for some unknown reasons. Some said that the 'unkown' is BOB.



If there is not SIGNIFICANT progression in 2022, then I won't even know what to say. Of course, I would think of something. We've got to get it in gear.

7C5A5B4C5A4A390 wrote: I hope that BC was given some sort of timeline to turn the team around. I don't like 5 year plans.  Three years should be long enough to show good progress.
Because of free agency, I think 3 years is about as much time as can be given. In 5 years Reynolds and Hayes will be gone. The window for a team that doesn't keep it's players as fee agents and therefore trades them before they walk is narrow.

1A2F3838330A38383334385D0 wrote: I would agee with most, if not all, of what you say here and Ster said above.



I get the sense that I'm more aggressive than others.  I said from Day 1 that I'd like to see some form of roster improvement from the onset.  Being the worst record in MLB at the time, I didn't think that should be terribly difficult.



But, it was impossible, for some unknown reasons.  Some said that the 'unkown' is BOB.



If there is not SIGNIFICANT progression in 2022, then I won't even know what to say.  Of course, I would think of something.   We've got to get it in gear.
What I want to see in 2022 is the beginnings of the roster that they expect to become competitive at least in another year. We are seeing a terrible team this year with a roster of players most of whom won't be here long. Ok, I get it. They punted from the start on the MLB roster to build up talent in the minors. So let's start seeing it in 2022. Even if they struggle and mostly lose, it should be with players who are learning and progressing toward becoming productive Pirates in another year or so. I don't want another year of watching mostly placeholders who lack MLB talent losing games.

I want to see a team that I want to watch play, not a team that I want to look away from. That's not a very high bar that I've set. But, they haven't reached even that standard in some time.



Dead last in RS has got to end. I don't see how it will, though.



Other than that, I never want to hear or read the word "execute" again.

073225252E1725252E2925400 wrote: I want to see a team that I want to watch play, not a team that I want to look away from.  That's not a very high bar that I've set.  But, they haven't reached even that standard in some time.



Dead last in RS has got to end.  I don't see how it will, though. 



Other than that, I never want to hear or read the word "execute" again.


Well, there is one way they could use it that would make sense.