OnlyBucs

505741494750171B62454F434B4E0C414D4F220 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it?   The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.



This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand.  When the players play great, it's the FO.  When the players play poorly, it's the players.  Do I have it down?



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The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster.  Liriano should have been held onto.   



I promise you this.   David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018.  He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.   



Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher.  That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average.  Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling. 



They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade.   Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.


Frankie Liriano was an enigma.  He still is to this date, but in a different uniform.  He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted.  He couldn't go deep in games.  The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him.  Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto?  Have no clue to be honest.  I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made.  The next time out, we see why he was dealt.  What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club.  If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.


Dan Zangrilli (sp?), in his wrap up after Sunday's game made reference to "to some players were definitely NOT all-in".  I wish he had said more. Maybe part of the problem this year is a clubhouse POed with the FO. If it's obvious to us that the FO is not truly trying to win, it must have been a sore point in the clubhouse.  Maybe Frankie was wanting to be traded?  Right now, this is such a messed up year that anything is possible. 




I'm sick of the "the FO is not trying to win, nonsense." That isn't necessarily directed at you VA, I'm just sick of it.



What I really want to say about your response though, is this idea of the players giving up cause they were made at the FO. If that is true, it may be one of the most petty things I've ever heard. Everyone of those guys gets paid exponentially more than me to play a game. What about being the underdogs? What about going out to prove others wrong? If the players played like crap because they were mad at the FO, they should not get further contracts. That is sports. There are the big boys and the little boys. When you are in their situation, it is a unique challenge. You have the opportunity to rise to the occasion and show what sort of person of integrity you are.

0E1337353B5E0 wrote: This has gotten pretty absurd, hasn't it?   The FO and in particular, Ray Searage, gets boatloads of credit the past 3 years when we're hitting on all cylinders.



This year, after a terrible offseason, the team wins 78 and it's not their fault. So I just want to understand.  When the players play great, it's the FO.  When the players play poorly, it's the players.  Do I have it down?



--------------------------------------------------------

The Liriano trade was an embarrassing disaster when it took place, and it will remain an embarrassing disaster.  Liriano should have been held onto.   



I promise you this.   David Freese isn't going to make a bit of difference in 2017 and 2018.  He's a run of the mill starting infielder, who's old and has little power.   



Frankie Liriano getting back to Frankie Liriano is a top tier LH starting pitcher.  That is an immensely more valuable thing than a corner IF with 12-15 HR power and a .270 average.  Even a 4 in 10 chance that he gets back there, is much more valuable than a corner IF with Freese's ceiling. 



They "reallocated" their financial flexibility into Freese even AFTER they made this ridiculous trade.   Just doubled down on the stupidity of it all.


Frankie Liriano was an enigma.  He still is to this date, but in a different uniform.  He was a guy that could look like a Cy Young candidate for 6.2 innings before being lifted.  He couldn't go deep in games.  The next time out, the Bad News Bears would club him. There was simply no consistency out of him.  Does he return to Frankie of previous years here in Toronto?  Have no clue to be honest.  I'm sure he will have that start that makes every one of us shake our heads saying what a bad deal we made.  The next time out, we see why he was dealt.  What it comes down to is this ... in what way, shape or form does the FO use that savings to improve the club.  If they don't use it on a key competent, then the deal is that much worse and NH/Nutting look more ridiculous with their financial flexibility comment.


Dan Zangrilli (sp?), in his wrap up after Sunday's game made reference to "to some players were definitely NOT all-in".  I wish he had said more. Maybe part of the problem this year is a clubhouse POed with the FO. If it's obvious to us that the FO is not truly trying to win, it must have been a sore point in the clubhouse.  Maybe Frankie was wanting to be traded?  Right now, this is such a messed up year that anything is possible. 




I'm sick of the "the FO is not trying to win, nonsense."  That isn't necessarily directed at you VA, I'm just sick of it.



What I really want to say about your response though, is this idea of the players giving up cause they were made at the FO.  If that is true, it may be one of the most petty things I've ever heard.  Everyone of those guys gets paid exponentially more than me to play a game.  What about being the underdogs?  What about going out to prove others wrong?  If the players played like crap because they were mad at the FO, they should not get further contracts.  That is sports.  There are the big boys and the little boys.  When you are in their situation, it is a unique challenge.  You have the opportunity to rise to the occasion and show what sort of person of integrity you are.


I agree with PMike in that the players need to suck it and rally around each other. That is what Steeler motto of next man up encourages.  However, I could see at some players getting demoralized, more by trade of Melancon than anything else.  Also could be that players just ran at out of gas at that point in season.  This season had to be a lot less fun for players than the past 3 years when they were able to go on hot streaks.  Starting pitching is to blame for most of that this season. 



Of course it is a lot easier to say rally than to actually do it.  They might have been able to talk the talk but if they didn't believe it then its not going to work.



SC Buc the Aram trade and Liriano trade were both about money, not saying the players were equivalent.

That's the whole point.  It was already used.  They turned around abd signed Freese for two years with it.



A declining corner IF with no power, a .270 average and average defense.  I know everyone loves him.  I like him too, for what he is.. a real good bench piece basically.



You're not getting better by trading LH starting pitching with proven track records of quality for that.



We WONT trade or release terrible LH starting pitcher (Locke) with no real track record for quality, but you better believe if one of the Top LH starters in the game loses it for 3-4 months, we will trade 2 top 100 prospects just to save his 14 mil 2017 contract.



While Locke still has a roster spot lol. After all these years of failure.  That SOB still is a Pirate and Frankie is not. It's comedy hour, and the joke is on us.

222B23323C460 wrote: That's the whole point.  It was already used.  They turned around abd signed Freese for two years with it.



A declining corner IF with no power, a .270 average and average defense.  I know everyone loves him.  I like him too, for what he is.. a real good bench piece basically.



You're not getting better by trading LH starting pitching with proven track records of quality for that.



We WONT trade or release terrible LH starting pitcher (Locke) with no real track record for quality, but you better believe if one of the Top LH starters in the game loses it for 3-4 months, we will trade 2 top 100 prospects just to save his 14 mil 2017 contract.



While Locke still has a roster spot lol. After all these years of failure.  That SOB still is a Pirate and Frankie is not.  It's comedy hour, and the joke is on us.
I think we've seen the last of Locke. He's now eligible for arbitration and would be grossly overpaid if the Pirates kept him.

The First Pitch article on P2 today looks at off-season roster issues and shows Locke as a non-tender candidate. Now the question is, does NH read either this site or P2?

7F7D676177120 wrote: The First Pitch article on P2 today looks at off-season roster issues and shows Locke as a non-tender candidate. Now the question is, does NH read either this site or P2?


He's not coming back.  How often did we see him pitch in the last month or so?



I'll tell you--4 times in September for a total of 7 IP. They were clearly over it.

Locke will get picked up by someone. It doesn't matter how good you are if you are left-handed.

61535F5F4B795A535E5B5453320 wrote: The First Pitch article on P2 today looks at off-season roster issues and shows Locke as a non-tender candidate. Now the question is, does NH read either this site or P2?


He's not coming back.  How often did we see him pitch in the last month or so?



I'll tell you--4 times in September for a total of 7 IP.  They were clearly over it. 


Agreed. They just DFA'd Phil Coke. Coke pitched in Sept. in lieu of Locke. The writing is on the wall.

515A525E5B5A410402754C545D5A5A1B565A350 wrote: Locke will get picked up by someone.  It doesn't matter how good you are if you are left-handed.
Ain't it the truth!