OnlyBucs

1E333E2F28392E6E6D5C0 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects. They think it can continue. The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.

6F7F7E495F5F533C0 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).

685A56564270535A57525D5A3B0 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).


They didn't get lucky with Jaso, Vogelsong, Hudson, Niese, Corey Hart, Mike Morse, Hutchison (if we are to believe they truly wanted him). Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. It's not like they have a magic formula to determine who will become an asset.

6F424F5E59485F1F1C2D0 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).


They didn't get lucky with Jaso, Vogelsong, Hudson, Niese, Corey Hart, Mike Morse, Hutchison (if we are to believe they truly wanted him). Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. It's not like they have a magic formula to determine who will become an asset.




I think the point is that you can't call it lucky when it works out, but not unlucky when it doesn't. That seems to be the case as people are against the management team. I give them credit for the good moves and the blame for the bad moves. It isn't "luck" one way or the other.

along those lines...Most importantly the "Ray Searage can turn anyone around myth" has to finally be dead.



He may be a great coach, the impact he had was terribly, terribly overstated and I think it lead to fans being more accepting of garbage pitching moves. Like a Vogelsong, or even like expectations that Nova would be a #2-#3 guy "after searage got him" stuff like that. (Nova is useful, don't get me wrong)



Not that fans really have anything to do with it anyway. We all could love something or hate something and I doubt it would make any difference at all with what the org does.



They're getting 30-50% of the payroll in revenue sharing. WTH do they care what we think?



NH even told us that if we aren't careful with our expectations of wanting to go get pieces and spending some money, we might end up like..... wait for it...... KANSAS CITY!



You know!! the team that has 2 pennants and a world series title in the past 5 years. ;D ;D what a buffoon.

414A424E4B4A511412655C444D4A4A0B464A250 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).


They didn't get lucky with Jaso, Vogelsong, Hudson, Niese, Corey Hart, Mike Morse, Hutchison (if we are to believe they truly wanted him). Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. It's not like they have a magic formula to determine who will become an asset.




I think the point is that you can't call it lucky when it works out, but not unlucky when it doesn't.  That seems to be the case as people are against the management team.  I give them credit for the good moves and the blame for the bad moves.  It isn't "luck" one way or the other.




Except with drafting and development right? That's a "crap shoot"?

676E667779030 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).


They didn't get lucky with Jaso, Vogelsong, Hudson, Niese, Corey Hart, Mike Morse, Hutchison (if we are to believe they truly wanted him). Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. It's not like they have a magic formula to determine who will become an asset.




I think the point is that you can't call it lucky when it works out, but not unlucky when it doesn't.  That seems to be the case as people are against the management team.  I give them credit for the good moves and the blame for the bad moves.  It isn't "luck" one way or the other.




Except with drafting and development right?  That's a "crap shoot"?




Well certainly nobody is going to have either a 100% success or 100% failure rate, in any kind of decision. I'd say they've been doing better than pure randomness would have it in those signings and worse in the draft.



Still it seems a little picky/choosy to tag the successes as lucky while also saying that fails are all incompetence. The signings were certainly better a few years ago than they have been more recently, so you'd wonder if something changed in the FO.

7B727A6B651F0 wrote: Maybe since we can't seem to sell off pieces acceptably right now we could go sign Todd Frazier a la Jay Bruce, make a couple strong bullpen moves and try to win?



If the market is so tight, try to win until July 31st at least.  You know, try to fill the stands get some excitement going?   


This is the Pirates.  They aren't signing anyone significant, or of Todd Frazier's ilk if they can't deal off Cole, Harrison, and Cutch.  You know better than this.


I'll never accept the loser mentality and defeatism of this organization, even if I know playing to win is highly unlikely.
I don't think the organization sees it as a "loser mentality and defeatism." I think they see it as trying to put together a winning team while restricting themselves to a very low payroll. And that's the problem. They are continually in the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" mode. Of course it's nonsense. But that is the front office the fans are counting on to produce a winner. Ain't gonna happen.




The problem with the "maybe we can get lucky with this guy" MO is they have been lucky with several reclamation projects.  They think it can continue.  The list is Melancon, Burnett, Liriano for a certain period, Volquez, and so on.


On the other hand, you'd think there would be a point where we'd have to stop calling it "lucky" (though not yet).


They didn't get lucky with Jaso, Vogelsong, Hudson, Niese, Corey Hart, Mike Morse, Hutchison (if we are to believe they truly wanted him). Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. It's not like they have a magic formula to determine who will become an asset.




I think the point is that you can't call it lucky when it works out, but not unlucky when it doesn't.  That seems to be the case as people are against the management team.  I give them credit for the good moves and the blame for the bad moves.  It isn't "luck" one way or the other.




Except with drafting and development right?  That's a "crap shoot"?




We had a Poll recently about the draft being a crap shoot. I was with the majority of the board in my vote. I also made some posts in that thread too. So, I never said that it was a 100% crap shoot. How did you vote in that Poll?

182A26263200232A27222D2A4B0 wrote:



Still it seems a little picky/choosy to tag the successes as lucky while also saying that fails are all incompetence.   




I agree with this 100%.



NH should be credited with both successes and failures as a result of his decision making. He's been on the job long enough that we shouldn't be saying his good decisions were due to luck and his bad decisions were due to incompetence.



It's very hard to quantify what specific decisions are based on luck as opposed to competency.



So, there's a much simpler formula that I choose to use in order to quantify everything:



Wins and losses at the major league level.



Three winning seasons out of ten means that the cumulative decisions that are being made are not good.



It's not a small sample size of time or decisions anymore.

6646554849270 wrote:



Still it seems a little picky/choosy to tag the successes as lucky while also saying that fails are all incompetence.   




I agree with this 100%.



NH should be credited with both successes and failures as a result of his decision making. He's been on the job long enough that we shouldn't be saying his good decisions were due to luck and his bad decisions were due to incompetence.



It's very hard to quantify what specific decisions are based on luck as opposed to competency.



So, there's a much simpler formula that I choose to use in order to quantify everything:



Wins and losses at the major league level.



Three winning seasons out of ten means that the cumulative decisions that are being made are not good.



It's not a small sample size of time or decisions anymore.


Do you give him a break on that win-loss record based on the first few rebuilding years considering the state of the team when he took over?



I give him that benefit of the doubt since the cupboard was bare when he took over and not much talent on the major league team to deal away. 2008-2011 were bad, but we saw the signs in 2011.



Yeah, the last two years have been bad and it needs to turn around. But I don't look at his 770-848 record as the end all considering the first few rebuilding years.