2024 Off-Season Thread

[Surgnbuck]

Guardians just traded Josh Naylor to Arizona for a RHP (Ciccone) that had an ERA of 6.66
Meanwhile the Pirates traded Ortiz a starting pitcher with a 3.32 ERA and a 100 MPH fastball plus 2 highly regarded LHP prospects. For a 1B with mediocre power and terrible splits. I don’t really care that Horwitz has 6 years of control. Skenes will be gone by then.
How in the world did BC screw up this deal with Cleveland.

Just when you think the Pirates cannot go any cheaper, they manage to find a way. Josh Naylor was the heart and soul of the Guardians with power and a gold glove. He would have been a leader on this team. More of a leader than Cutch.

Okay, not defending necessarily, but come on. "Highly regarded LHP prospects"...by who? You show me one instance on this board, on anything that isn't done by a Pirate-centric website, that says these guys were "highly regarded". I dare say there isn't a single mfer on this board who knew those prospects before the trade occured. They just looked at some arbitrary "ratings" board and saw "15 and 17". One guy just made it to Greensboro, the other guy hasn't even played a season of rookie ball, he was part of the last draft. It will be a minimum of 3 years before these "highly regarded" guys strut their stuff at PNC at their all star level, that they're certain to attain because BC doesn't know what he's doing.

Also, it wasn't just the pitcher Arizona traded, it was also a competitive Round B pick also. Cleveland turned right around and signed Santana, for basically the same money Naylor is expected to get either by contract or arbitration. Most assuredly, Naylor's team knows next season he'll be in high demand, what with his only other competition for big bucks being Vlad Jr. at first base, and Cleveland knew dang well he's testing free agency. Naylor will be next in line after Vlad Jr. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cleveland seem to have a pretty good track record with pitchers?

I just hope everyone who has automatically flushed this trade as a bad one fesses up if they're wrong. I myself said I'm skeptical, because I don't like the idea of trading a pitcher who has already gone through his regression to the league period, overcame that, and now looks to be a solid guy the rest of the way. He's still only a 5 inning pitcher. He's still going to be pretty much a swingman on better rosters. But I'm not grading this trade until we've actually seen how the players in it fare over the next season or two. I'd have much rather saw an everyday player in return with at least two years. But I'm willing to wait before I stamp my "grade".

So if I'm connecting the dots correctly, it appears you are saying the Pirates could have had Naylor for Ortiz? That would have been a rip off and I would be thrashing BC had he made that deal, because yes, years of control mean something, and not just to the Pirates, but to every other organization in MLB.

[Surgnbuck]

Guardians just traded Josh Naylor to Arizona for a RHP (Ciccone) that had an ERA of 6.66
Meanwhile the Pirates traded Ortiz a starting pitcher with a 3.32 ERA and a 100 MPH fastball plus 2 highly regarded LHP prospects. For a 1B with mediocre power and terrible splits. I don’t really care that Horwitz has 6 years of control. Skenes will be gone by then.
How in the world did BC screw up this deal with Cleveland.

Just when you think the Pirates cannot go any cheaper, they manage to find a way. Josh Naylor was the heart and soul of the Guardians with power and a gold glove. He would have been a leader on this team. More of a leader than Cutch.

It was no screw-up. Spencer Horwitz is here instead of Josh Naylor because he earns $800,000 while Naylor's due $12 million. Money, not talent, is always the deciding factor.

Doc, you're way wrong on this one, read my reply to Jolly roger for my take. I don't disagree about money being an issue with the Pirates, but in this instance, trading Ortiz for Naylor would have been a massive mistake, and it has nothing to do with money.

[fjk090852-7]

Guardians just traded Josh Naylor to Arizona for a RHP (Ciccone) that had an ERA of 6.66
Meanwhile the Pirates traded Ortiz a starting pitcher with a 3.32 ERA and a 100 MPH fastball plus 2 highly regarded LHP prospects. For a 1B with mediocre power and terrible splits. I don’t really care that Horwitz has 6 years of control. Skenes will be gone by then.
How in the world did BC screw up this deal with Cleveland.

Just when you think the Pirates cannot go any cheaper, they manage to find a way. Josh Naylor was the heart and soul of the Guardians with power and a gold glove. He would have been a leader on this team. More of a leader than Cutch.

Okay, not defending necessarily, but come on. "Highly regarded LHP prospects"...by who? You show me one instance on this board, on anything that isn't done by a Pirate-centric website, that says these guys were "highly regarded". I dare say there isn't a single mfer on this board who knew those prospects before the trade occured. They just looked at some arbitrary "ratings" board and saw "15 and 17". One guy just made it to Greensboro, the other guy hasn't even played a season of rookie ball, he was part of the last draft. It will be a minimum of 3 years before these "highly regarded" guys strut their stuff at PNC at their all star level, that they're certain to attain because BC doesn't know what he's doing.

Also, it wasn't just the pitcher Arizona traded, it was also a competitive Round B pick also. Cleveland turned right around and signed Santana, for basically the same money Naylor is expected to get either by contract or arbitration. Most assuredly, Naylor's team knows next season he'll be in high demand, what with his only other competition for big bucks being Vlad Jr. at first base, and Cleveland knew dang well he's testing free agency. Naylor will be next in line after Vlad Jr. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cleveland seem to have a pretty good track record with pitchers?

I just hope everyone who has automatically flushed this trade as a bad one fesses up if they're wrong. I myself said I'm skeptical, because I don't like the idea of trading a pitcher who has already gone through his regression to the league period, overcame that, and now looks to be a solid guy the rest of the way. He's still only a 5 inning pitcher. He's still going to be pretty much a swingman on better rosters. But I'm not grading this trade until we've actually seen how the players in it fare over the next season or two. I'd have much rather saw an everyday player in return with at least two years. But I'm willing to wait before I stamp my "grade".

So if I'm connecting the dots correctly, it appears you are saying the Pirates could have had Naylor for Ortiz? That would have been a rip off and I would be thrashing BC had he made that deal, because yes, years of control mean something, and not just to the Pirates, but to every other organization in MLB.

I agree with you concerning the highly regarded pitching prospects. I thought when we traded Taillon we received two decent pitching prospects, but both are gone. One never knows about prospects. They may turn out to be good, or fizzle out.I agree with you let’s see over a few months what the Pirates have with Horwitz.

[3pirates3]

I dare say there isn't a single mfer on this board who knew those prospects before the trade occurred.

I liked the Kennedy pick when the Pirates drafted him, as did the Pirates since they gave him $1 million. Hartle did disappoint in his draft year but was well-known.

Again, nothing against Horwitz but just because a player has years of control remaining doesn't mean he'll be good enough to last that long with the team. We heard the same logic with some of Huntington's failed prospect acquisitions. Who cares how long you have a guy if he can't get the job done?

[Ecbucs]

Guardians just traded Josh Naylor to Arizona for a RHP (Ciccone) that had an ERA of 6.66
Meanwhile the Pirates traded Ortiz a starting pitcher with a 3.32 ERA and a 100 MPH fastball plus 2 highly regarded LHP prospects. For a 1B with mediocre power and terrible splits. I don’t really care that Horwitz has 6 years of control. Skenes will be gone by then.
How in the world did BC screw up this deal with Cleveland.

Just when you think the Pirates cannot go any cheaper, they manage to find a way. Josh Naylor was the heart and soul of the Guardians with power and a gold glove. He would have been a leader on this team. More of a leader than Cutch.

It was no screw-up. Spencer Horwitz is here instead of Josh Naylor because he earns $800,000 while Naylor's due $12 million. Money, not talent, is always the deciding factor.

Doc, you're way wrong on this one, read my reply to Jolly roger for my take. I don't disagree about money being an issue with the Pirates, but in this instance, trading Ortiz for Naylor would have been a massive mistake, and it has nothing to do with money.

well the Pirates used draft picks that aren't that much lower than the Competitive balance pick that the Guardians received. Apparently at the draft, Kennedy had fallen. Hartle I don't know anything about other than what was written when he was drafted last year. The Pirates probably thought they had to overpay or he would be dealt elsewhere leasving them out in the cold as far as finding a cheap first base option.

[3pirates3]

finding a cheap first base option.

There must've been other affordable options that wouldn't have cost so much asset-wise?

[Doc]

Guardians just traded Josh Naylor to Arizona for a RHP (Ciccone) that had an ERA of 6.66
Meanwhile the Pirates traded Ortiz a starting pitcher with a 3.32 ERA and a 100 MPH fastball plus 2 highly regarded LHP prospects. For a 1B with mediocre power and terrible splits. I don’t really care that Horwitz has 6 years of control. Skenes will be gone by then.
How in the world did BC screw up this deal with Cleveland.

Just when you think the Pirates cannot go any cheaper, they manage to find a way. Josh Naylor was the heart and soul of the Guardians with power and a gold glove. He would have been a leader on this team. More of a leader than Cutch.

It was no screw-up. Spencer Horwitz is here instead of Josh Naylor because he earns $800,000 while Naylor's due $12 million. Money, not talent, is always the deciding factor.

Doc, you're way wrong on this one, read my reply to Jolly roger for my take. I don't disagree about money being an issue with the Pirates, but in this instance, trading Ortiz for Naylor would have been a massive mistake, and it has nothing to do with money.

I fully understand the years of control aspect, I’m just not convinced Nutting cares about it. He sees his players in the same way he sees his workers at Ogden Newspapers: they’re necessary evils who are easily replaceable. It matters little to him how much control he has over them, it only matters what they’re paid. Once they become too expensive he sends them away. So whether it’s Horowitz for six years or Naylor for one year is of no concern to him. He’d replace whichever one he has when it’s in his best interests.

It’s also a good possibility that if Horowitz spends four to five years with the Pirates his combined earnings will be less over that period than Naylor will earn in 2025 alone.

Nutting’s not trying to win, Surge. He’s only trying to have the best bottom line possible. His actions every single year since the end of the 2015 season have shown that’s his intent.

[Doc]

I know nothing of Horowitz’s abilities. But I do find it interesting that Cleveland traded him likely knowing they were not only going to trade Naylor, but had probably already had made arrangements with Santana to come on board once the Naylor trade was completed. The Guardians, an organization that’s proven to be much better at talent evaluation than the Pirates, concluded that Santana for one year was a better option than control of Horowitz for six years.