5A777A6B6C7D6A2A29180 wrote: It's to bad our owner seems to know nothing about baseball, and just believes the BS coming from NH and CH. We are stuck with these losers for 4 more years. Makes me sick.
I have a different take. I see our owner refusing to commit the necessary resources to win and NH and CH just glad to have jobs and willing to say whatever they need to say to propagate the company line. IMHO, NH and CH know they can't win under Nutting but also know their jobs require them to talk the talk to trick fans into thinking there's a chance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMRrNY0pxfM
I know little about the owner but most people with his kind of money are generally smart enough to know if you are losing it's not good for finances. He seems to have gotten into a lucrative business, baseball, with little knowledge of the game and is depending on his help to advise him and he's getting horrible advise. He can still make money but he needs to hire a great GM and he can become famous in Pittsburg and make a lot of money, if he continues to listen to loser NH his reputation in the Burg will continue to go in the tank, and his profits will suffer.
The "Big Picture" as far as Bob Nutting as a baseball businessman is concerned is that the MLB franchise he purchased for $92 million in 1995 is now worth approximately $1.25 billion. He's gained more than $900 million on his investment in 22 years. He's done this all the while his team has had only 3 winning seasons over that time.
Bob Nutting is plenty smart enough to realize that winning isn't necessary for him to make lots of money as a baseball owner. In fact trying to win would require more effort, and might be more expensive in the long run. Even if he could make more money by funding a winner with higher payroll is it really worth the risk when all he has to do is keep the status quo to keep piling up his franchise's monetary value? Bob obviously thinks not. I'm pretty confident that his business mantra is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Nutting is sitting on a gold mine. But he only gets that wealth if he sells the team for what it's now worth. I believe he's still turning an annual profit with more revenue than expenditures. Otherwise, it makes no sense for him to not sell.
While I have a sense that what you've said is true, I would simply add that we don't know what Bob Nutting has in mind as a timeline for his investment. We do know that Mr. Nutting has more than just the Pirates franchise in his portfolio (resort and newspaper at minimum). He could be taking liquid profits from other investments while letting the value of his MLB investment skyrocket. He could also, in the future, be looking at offering buy-ins to other investors for minority shares to keep cash flowing.
Debunking the Excuse Myth
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Debunking the Excuse Myth
Aaron, I just want to say that that was a great post to start this thread. I haven't read here much since the middle of the summer and now the fall because the conversations were too dualistic and there wasn't much analysis. This post of yours is really thoughtful and articulate. You've got me wanting to read through a lot of back threads to catch up!
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
Debunking the Excuse Myth
4F5276747A1F0 wrote: Aaron, I just want to say that that was a great post to start this thread. I haven't read here much since the middle of the summer and now the fall because the conversations were too dualistic and there wasn't much analysis. This post of yours is really thoughtful and articulate. You've got me wanting to read through a lot of back threads to catch up!
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
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Bobster21
Debunking the Excuse Myth
6D4D5E43422C0 wrote: Aaron, I just want to say that that was a great post to start this thread. I haven't read here much since the middle of the summer and now the fall because the conversations were too dualistic and there wasn't much analysis. This post of yours is really thoughtful and articulate. You've got me wanting to read through a lot of back threads to catch up!
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
Aaron. you've hit the nail on the head. This has always been my argument against "they did it before, they can do it again." They went from a very low payroll in 2012 to a higher payroll in 2015 (98 wins). But due to MLB inflation, all it got them was from #26 in payroll to #25. That's when it seemed Nutting realized that it was going to require a lot more spending to get beyond where they were in 2015 and he was not going to do it. So the "we'll spend when the time is right" (but after 98 wins is not the right time) or "we'll spend when the fans come out" (but setting a franchise attendance record is not the right time) shows that there is no situation that will lead to a significant spending increase. So we have nothing better to hope for than productive rookies and good dumpster diving. Even if NH improves at drafting, there's never going to be a time that no holes exist on the ML roster and that filling them on the cheap will be good enough.
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
Aaron. you've hit the nail on the head. This has always been my argument against "they did it before, they can do it again." They went from a very low payroll in 2012 to a higher payroll in 2015 (98 wins). But due to MLB inflation, all it got them was from #26 in payroll to #25. That's when it seemed Nutting realized that it was going to require a lot more spending to get beyond where they were in 2015 and he was not going to do it. So the "we'll spend when the time is right" (but after 98 wins is not the right time) or "we'll spend when the fans come out" (but setting a franchise attendance record is not the right time) shows that there is no situation that will lead to a significant spending increase. So we have nothing better to hope for than productive rookies and good dumpster diving. Even if NH improves at drafting, there's never going to be a time that no holes exist on the ML roster and that filling them on the cheap will be good enough.
Debunking the Excuse Myth
7B565B4A4D5C4B0B08390 wrote: Aaron, I just want to say that that was a great post to start this thread. I haven't read here much since the middle of the summer and now the fall because the conversations were too dualistic and there wasn't much analysis. This post of yours is really thoughtful and articulate. You've got me wanting to read through a lot of back threads to catch up!
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
Aaron. you've hit the nail on the head. This has always been my argument against "they did it before, they can do it again." They went from a very low payroll in 2012 to a higher payroll in 2015 (98 wins). But due to MLB inflation, all it got them was from #26 in payroll to #25. That's when it seemed Nutting realized that it was going to require a lot more spending to get beyond where they were in 2015 and he was not going to do it. So the "we'll spend when the time is right" (but after 98 wins is not the right time) or "we'll spend when the fans come out" (but setting a franchise attendance record is not the right time) shows that there is no situation that will lead to a significant spending increase. So we have nothing better to hope for than productive rookies and good dumpster diving. Even if NH improves at drafting, there's never going to be a time that no holes exist on the ML roster and that filling them on the cheap will be good enough.
yep, unwilling to tear down to low payroll and rebuild with cheap young players and unwilling to pay close to average payroll to have more experienced players leaves the team stuck in mediocrity unless everything goes right (which is still just hope not a plan).
Specifically, I want to say that it is easy to point to Nutting and say that he is pocketing the money from the Pirates to offset other businesses he owns (Seven Springs and the newspaper). That is REALLY unlikely. I am sure there are other stakeholders who would have major issues with that. Plus, it would be totally unethical to cross monies between those organizations.
That said, I think it is extremely likely that Nutting plays it very safe with the Pirates. Or, to say it another way, he isn't going to come close to going in the red with them. The Pirates may be worth more than 10 fold what he paid for them, but he has none of that money at this moment. He needs to be making money each year. In addition, I can't imagine the other businesses he owns are strong money makers (a ski resort in a very poor and non snowy area of PA and a dying media business). For himself and the future prosperity of his family, the Pirates are the best source of positive income for the future. He can't afford to go into the red with them on a one year basis or a multi year basis.
I agree with all of the critiques of NH above. Esp. drafting. However, I continue to come to the conclusion, "Can a GM really compete competitively with a payroll of about $100-110 million?" The Pirates did it for a blip of years. I don't think it can happen again. It seems as if $30-40 million more go a long way.
No question the limited finances play a roll as NH’s success seems to have peaked as a result of the Pirates reaching their payroll ceiling. I don’t think anyone is suggesting NH couldn’t do better with an additional 20-30 million.
But here’s my issue with NH and considering where the Pirates currently are financially. First, they aren’t going to increase payroll. And it appears NH was most successful when the core of his team was cheap and he had a measure of financial flexibility. Remember, the Pirates increased their payroll 61 million in 2012 to 95 by 2015. Some of that was due to younger players getting expensive and some was due to NH acquiring somewhat expensive players. But that landscape doesn’t exist today and it seems to have nearly crippled NH. He’s no longer picking up guys like Martin, Burnett or Liriano. Additionally, he seems to needlessly spend on Hudson, Bastardo or SRod.
My point being, if NH can’t draft well enough to build a team of inexpensive players and isn’t capable of building a winner with a tight budget, is he the right man for the job?
Aaron. you've hit the nail on the head. This has always been my argument against "they did it before, they can do it again." They went from a very low payroll in 2012 to a higher payroll in 2015 (98 wins). But due to MLB inflation, all it got them was from #26 in payroll to #25. That's when it seemed Nutting realized that it was going to require a lot more spending to get beyond where they were in 2015 and he was not going to do it. So the "we'll spend when the time is right" (but after 98 wins is not the right time) or "we'll spend when the fans come out" (but setting a franchise attendance record is not the right time) shows that there is no situation that will lead to a significant spending increase. So we have nothing better to hope for than productive rookies and good dumpster diving. Even if NH improves at drafting, there's never going to be a time that no holes exist on the ML roster and that filling them on the cheap will be good enough.
yep, unwilling to tear down to low payroll and rebuild with cheap young players and unwilling to pay close to average payroll to have more experienced players leaves the team stuck in mediocrity unless everything goes right (which is still just hope not a plan).