OnlyBucs

604D40515647501013220 wrote: I think that Williams, Cherington, and now Williams have all been good hires. For the first time since 2015, I’m optimistic a out the future of the team. I still think they need to tear down and rebuild, but I believe these three positions are key and I think the Pirates made sound decisions on all three.


until you realize that the owner is still the same.....LOL.....as pirate fans all we have is hope, not holding my breath waiting for a different result in 3-5 years.  hope I am wrong


I repeat, leadership can make a massive difference in any team.  Now whether these guys are great leaders we will see, but I know what we had and it was awful.  It won't take long to see.
True. But the leader at the top hasn't changed. Maybe Williams, Cherington and Shelton will impress upon Nutting that he needs to change his ways to succeed in MLB (beyond the idea that success = profit). It always seemed to me that Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle were just glad to have their jobs. Nutting needs to change. Maybe this new management team can make a difference.
I don't know but it's pretty obvious he's not involved in the day to day operations. He's a businessman and no real business can operate with a negative income except our government and even that will come to an end sometime.  I unlike most on this board don't believe money is the problem.  Here's some reasons I think I'm right Washington 199 million, tampa bay 104 million, Twins 151 million, Dodgers 208 million, Astros 178 million, Athletics 87 Million, Yankees 193 Million, Cardinals 176 Million, Braves 133 Million,  Brewers 113 million, Mariners 174 million, Orioles 161 million, Pirates 109 million, Tigers 148 million, Angels 206 million.  This info is from forbes as of April 2019.  Notice the amounts paid players are all over the place.  I inculded the top teams and the bottom teams.  The rational that buying players is the way to have a winning team is blown out of the water for the most part.  It starts with the GM and the Manager and sometimes the President, sounds like Connely interferred with the Pirates. Anyway just want to emphasis it's going to take a lot more than spending more money for the Pirates to win.


What do those Forbes numbers represent? It's not payroll.


The catagory I posted was labeled Players Expenses.

Here's a sample of the info

Detroit Tigers

Ron Gardenhire Manager



TEAM VALUE1

$1.3B      Calculated April 2019

OWNER(S)

Ilitch Family

CHAMPIONSHIPS 4

YEAR PURCHASED

1992

PRICE PAID $82M

REVENUE2 $276M

OPERATING INCOME3 $19M

DEBT/VALUE4  12%

PLAYER EXPENSES5 $148M

GATE RECEIPTS6 $59M

WINS-TO-PLAYER COST RATIO7  77

REVENUE PER FAN8 $39

METRO AREA POPULATION 4.3M

MEDIA PARTNERS Tv: Fox Sports Detroit; Radio: 97.1 The Ticket, WXYT 1270 AM

Pirates info https://www.forbes.com/teams/pittsburgh ... cf93f266c8

6E434E5F58495E1E1D2C0 wrote: I think that Williams, Cherington, and now Williams have all been good hires. For the first time since 2015, I’m optimistic a out the future of the team. I still think they need to tear down and rebuild, but I believe these three positions are key and I think the Pirates made sound decisions on all three.


until you realize that the owner is still the same.....LOL.....as pirate fans all we have is hope, not holding my breath waiting for a different result in 3-5 years.  hope I am wrong


I repeat, leadership can make a massive difference in any team.  Now whether these guys are great leaders we will see, but I know what we had and it was awful.  It won't take long to see.
True. But the leader at the top hasn't changed. Maybe Williams, Cherington and Shelton will impress upon Nutting that he needs to change his ways to succeed in MLB (beyond the idea that success = profit). It always seemed to me that Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle were just glad to have their jobs. Nutting needs to change. Maybe this new management team can make a difference.
I don't know but it's pretty obvious he's not involved in the day to day operations. He's a businessman and no real business can operate with a negative income except our government and even that will come to an end sometime.  I unlike most on this board don't believe money is the problem.  Here's some reasons I think I'm right Washington 199 million, tampa bay 104 million, Twins 151 million, Dodgers 208 million, Astros 178 million, Athletics 87 Million, Yankees 193 Million, Cardinals 176 Million, Braves 133 Million,  Brewers 113 million, Mariners 174 million, Orioles 161 million, Pirates 109 million, Tigers 148 million, Angels 206 million.  This info is from forbes as of April 2019.  Notice the amounts paid players are all over the place.  I inculded the top teams and the bottom teams.  The rational that buying players is the way to have a winning team is blown out of the water for the most part.  It starts with the GM and the Manager and sometimes the President, sounds like Connely interferred with the Pirates. Anyway just want to emphasis it's going to take a lot more than spending more money for the Pirates to win.


What do those Forbes numbers represent? It's not payroll.




Forbes' player expenses includes payroll plus benefits and bonuses according to their website. While this might, in fact, be a more comprehensive representation of the ownership's total expense for players compensation, I prefer Spotrac's comparative display of MLB payroll. Spotrac allows for an easy to read graphic of all MLB teams, which is a good "apples to apples" comparison, and gives a league-wide context in which a team's expenditures can be evaluated. Here's a link to that site:

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/

Yes, I usually rely on Spotrac for payroll info. Spotrac shows 60.85 million for 2020 but that only represents Marte, Archer and Polanco, whose multi-year contracts include their 2020 salary and 10 others with estimated 2020 salaries based on arbitration. Spotrac updates their totals as roster moves are made and contracts are signed.



https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/

If it is a rebuild, then almost by definition the payroll is going to go down. It might be a few seasons before we know whether there's a change in that regard.

4662767E7B170 wrote: I think that Williams, Cherington, and now Williams have all been good hires. For the first time since 2015, I’m optimistic a out the future of the team. I still think they need to tear down and rebuild, but I believe these three positions are key and I think the Pirates made sound decisions on all three.


until you realize that the owner is still the same.....LOL.....as pirate fans all we have is hope, not holding my breath waiting for a different result in 3-5 years.  hope I am wrong


I repeat, leadership can make a massive difference in any team.  Now whether these guys are great leaders we will see, but I know what we had and it was awful.  It won't take long to see.
True. But the leader at the top hasn't changed. Maybe Williams, Cherington and Shelton will impress upon Nutting that he needs to change his ways to succeed in MLB (beyond the idea that success = profit). It always seemed to me that Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle were just glad to have their jobs. Nutting needs to change. Maybe this new management team can make a difference.
I don't know but it's pretty obvious he's not involved in the day to day operations. He's a businessman and no real business can operate with a negative income except our government and even that will come to an end sometime.  I unlike most on this board don't believe money is the problem.  Here's some reasons I think I'm right Washington 199 million, tampa bay 104 million, Twins 151 million, Dodgers 208 million, Astros 178 million, Athletics 87 Million, Yankees 193 Million, Cardinals 176 Million, Braves 133 Million,  Brewers 113 million, Mariners 174 million, Orioles 161 million, Pirates 109 million, Tigers 148 million, Angels 206 million.  This info is from forbes as of April 2019.  Notice the amounts paid players are all over the place.  I inculded the top teams and the bottom teams.  The rational that buying players is the way to have a winning team is blown out of the water for the most part.  It starts with the GM and the Manager and sometimes the President, sounds like Connely interferred with the Pirates. Anyway just want to emphasis it's going to take a lot more than spending more money for the Pirates to win.


What do those Forbes numbers represent? It's not payroll.




Forbes' player expenses includes payroll plus benefits and bonuses according to their website. While this might, in fact, be a more comprehensive representation of the ownership's total expense for players compensation, I prefer Spotrac's comparative display of MLB payroll. Spotrac allows for an easy to read graphic of all MLB teams, which is a good "apples to apples" comparison, and gives a league-wide context in which a team's expenditures can be evaluated. Here's a link to that site:

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/


So they aren't even close to the same so don't think we can just say they're both right. From my stand point just looking at Oakland, there's no way I think they spend the amount sportstrac says, cause I think their payroll is the lowest in baseball, just based on the organization.

The Forbes info comes from April of 2019. Spotrac is looking at current payroll including estimates of individual player's salaries who are due for arbitration as a projection for 2020 payroll. So they aren't going to be the same. Here's the Spotrac detailed payroll info on Oakland: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/oakland-athletics/payroll/



BTW- Spotrac also has payroll figures for previous seasons which does not include any estimates.

For example the 2019 season: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2019/

1A3E2A22274B0 wrote: The Forbes info comes from April of 2019. Spotrac is looking at current payroll including estimates of individual player's salaries who are due for arbitration as a projection for 2020 payroll. So they aren't going to be the same. Here's the Spotrac detailed payroll info on Oakland: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/oakland-athletics/payroll/



BTW- Spotrac also has payroll figures for previous seasons which does not include any estimates.

For example the 2019 season: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2019/
Not sure why Oakland total payroll only show them paying 15 players. Pretty sure that isn't right, very confusing.

2E363433332435322F2E385D0 wrote: The Forbes info comes from April of 2019. Spotrac is looking at current payroll including estimates of individual player's salaries who are due for arbitration as a projection for 2020 payroll. So they aren't going to be the same. Here's the Spotrac detailed payroll info on Oakland: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/oakland-athletics/payroll/



BTW- Spotrac also has payroll figures for previous seasons which does not include any estimates.

For example the 2019 season: https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2019/
Not sure why Oakland total payroll only show them paying 15 players.  Pretty sure that isn't right, very confusing.


That's the number of Oakland players for which salaries can be accounted for so far for 2020. 5 players are already under established contracts and 11 more are arbitration eligible with their estimated salaries. If you change the year to 2019 you will see the entire payroll.



For the Pirates, the 2020 figures only include Marte, Archer and Polanco whose 2020 salaries are set and 10 more players whose salaries via arbitration can be estimated. As contracts are signed for 2020, the Spotrac figures are updated until the whole team payroll is accounted for. So when you look at that site, you can go to any past year for the total payroll but the 2020 figures are a work in progress until everyone has a signed contract.