OnlyBucs

4D444C5D53290 wrote: I'll be buying the MLB package so I can stream Indians games here.   I won't trap my boys into Pirates or bust.  I may never be able to escape that mentality, but I will do everything I can to help them avoid it. 



This is a loser organization



Pirates in the NL, Indians in the AL.   It's only 2 hours away... This is doable


Right, lot's of room on the bandwagon there.  There have been all sorts of people threatening to quit following the Pirates if they trade McCutchen.  Have at it.



Heaven forbid we teach our kids that sports can be a lot like life.  Sometimes things are stacked against you.  Sometimes, there is no chance of winning.  In life, you have to deal with losing and failure.  I think that's one of the gifts of sports.  At some point, everyone has to deal with losing and failure.  My kids can keep on being a Pirates fan in the good times and in the bad times.  They will be better people for it.  It was an unbelievable joy celebrating the playoffs 4 years ago with my Pirates family and friends who, like me, had endured the history.  It was the same way on this board that fall.



"The dark does not destroy the light, it defines it."


nonsense.  sports is not this organization., in sports, you TRY your best and leave it on the field.  the ownership group certainly  isnt trying to win    hes trying  to make tons of money and hoping he happens to win in the process.



so save your life lessons for better examples.   if the pirates (and fans like yourself) serve any good example, the example is DONT be suckered by words when actions are what matter.   Dont allow yourself to become a victim of fraud/propaganda  and if you do? for gods sake dont just go along with it blindly because of some nostalgia from 40 years ago.  thats the life lesson




Is the ownership not trying to win, or trying to make lots of money while hoping that winning happens in the process? Those seem like contradictory statements. Either way, they are unsubstantiated because neither you nor I have any idea about their priorities.



I'm not the victim of any propaganda or fraud regarding the Pirates. As I type that, it seems ridiculous that I would even need to say it. They are a sports team. I love the sport and I love the local team that I grew up watching. Win or lose, this is the team I follow and will continue following.



Nostalgia. Yes. That is perhaps the most beautiful part of it. Baseball and the Pirates connect me to my 94 year old grandfather. Stories of his dad riding his bike 60 miles to go to games to see Honus Wagner. My dad. My wife and our early dates at the ballpark. Amazing friends. And now my kids. Some people don't have those sort of life long connections. Maybe that's a better way to experience sports. Personally, I can't imagine it.



You have seen more than enough of my posts here to know that I know the intricacies of this organization and its ownership. They aren't going to ruin the Pirates for me. Anyone can jump from winner to winner when the going gets tough.

I am not like DMetz where I want to root for another team and value what Pmike says.



However, I do want to have hope (and realistic hope not winning the lottery type hope) that the team can win a championship.



Many fans go to games just for fun experience.



I can have just as much fun at a minor league game where I don't care who wins as I do at a Pirate game. The difference is in the Pirate game I care who wins. That rooting interest is what makes it worth spending extra money and time to follow a team for me.

I'm a Pirate fan for life since the Maz HR and always will be. But that doesn't mean I won't get upset about the direction the team takes. For 20 years we saw a downward direction. The next 3 years were an upward direction. We had been told by mgt that spending would increase at the right time, i.e. when the team was competitive. Instead, we saw a disturbing off season after a 98-win year in which the team took a large step backwards. And while the FO is quick to point out that payroll has increased each year, that is no more than MLB inflation and no significant spending was done to improve the team. In fact, it now looks like the team is shedding significant players merely to reduce spending. So I don't really see any correlation between being a good fan and being satisfied or dissatisfied with what the team is doing.

The Indians haven't done much either. Yeah, they made a run this year, but they only spent about $1 million more on payroll than the Pirates. The Pirates had a higher payroll in 2015. The Pirates and Indians have been around 24-26 in payroll the last few years. They took a chance on a low payroll and it worked.



We know the Indians only won two World Series too. The last one was in 1948. The Pirates have won three since then.



Even if you go back to 1990, the Indians don't favor the Pirates that much. Yeah, they have three AL Pennants in that span, but they didn't capitalize on those good teams of the 90s.



The Pirates have six playoff appearances to the Indians nine since 1990. The Pirates have three playoff appearances to the Indians two in the last four years.



If you jump ship to the Indians, you may be just as disappointed. The 2016 Indians is a perfect example of what the Pirates are trying to do. Make the playoffs and see what happens. Are the Indians going to increase their payroll? I have no idea. But their payrolls and success have been pretty similar to the Pirates. Were Indians fans jumping ship to the Pirates in 2014?

I've already stated my case elsewhere, but I won't allow Bob Nutting or hopefully anyone else destroy something that is valueable to me and my family.  But Cleveland makes a good case study of how "small mkt's" budgets work, as does KC.



Since 2010 (I was guessing when Nutting over, I can't remember) the Pirates have drawn ~4.3M more fans than Cleveland.  In 2015 the Pirates drew more than 1.1M more fans.  In 2016, the Pirates drew more than 700K.



The average cost for a Pirates ticket 2016 was ~$30.  Cleveland ~$26.  www.statista.com/statistics/193673/aver ... b-by-team/



So if the Pirates average more per ticket and average significantly more fans, how come the Indians payroll was about $10M more for 2016?  http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-p ... roll/2016/



The Royals: since 2010 the Pirates have drawn almost 1M more fans.  in 2016 the KC average ticket price was ~$27 (Pirates ~$30). 



Get this - the KC owner is known as a cheapskate. 

KC total payroll 2016 $145M.  Maybe more telling, is their 2015 payroll, because attendance before 2015 (their WS year) was significantly below the Pirates

2015 Pirates = $105M

2015 Royals = $132M



2016 Pirates = $105M

2016 Royals = $145M



Over two years the Royals spent an extra $57M!  They won a WS. 



I love the Pirates, but I feel a complete right to call a spade a spade.  Give Neal an extra $57M in 2015/16 and I wonder if we would have one or two WS????



*Note - I've done no research beyond the checking the 1st site Google pulled up.  Maybe the number can be disproved.  But the overall point is well demonstrated.

The Royals remind me of the Phillies after they won the World Series. They paid the guys who helped them win it all and probably really hurt the future for the time being. But they did win the WS.



If the Pirates win the World Series, I wouldn't care what they did for years after that. That one WS victory would last years in my mind.



I did see different payroll numbers for the start of the seasons when I compared the Indians and Pirates. So, not sure what is accurate.

I'll never be able to not be a Pirates fan. What I said was that I won't raise my boys into a Pirates or nothing mentality. Its a loser organization that doesnt try to win. It's a bad example of a baseball organization.



Hopefully they're able to enjoy an NL team that won't try and an AL team that does at the same time. Then maybe they won't grow into their late 30s having never even seen a pennant.



Or perhaps even longer. Not happening next year. 40 years? 45 years? 50 ? 13 more years without a WS appearance, and it's half a century.

38313928265C0 wrote: I'll never be able to not be a Pirates fan.   What I said was that I won't raise my boys into a Pirates or nothing mentality.   Its a loser organization that doesnt try to win.   It's a bad example of a baseball organization.   



Hopefully they're able to enjoy an NL team that won't try and an AL team that does at the same time.  Then maybe they won't grow into their late 30s having never even seen a pennant.   



Or perhaps even longer.   Not happening next year.   40 years? 45 years? 50 ?   13 more years without a WS appearance, and it's half a century.






The Indians now have the longest drought of winning a World Series.  It is now 68 years.  It has been 37 years since the Pirates last won the World Series.



If you just care about pennants, you do have a case. 



Here is the top ten in droughts:



Year - Team - Last Championship Won - Last WS Appearance

68 - Cleveland Indians - 1948 - 2016

56 - Texas Rangers -  Never - (franchise began 1961) - 2011

55 - Houston Astros - Never - (franchise began 1962) - 2005

48 - Milwaukee Brewers - Never - (franchise began 1969) - 1982

48 - San Diego Padres - Never - (franchise began 1969) - 1998

48 - Washington Nationals - Never - (franchise began 1969) - never

40 - Seattle Mariners - Never - (franchise began 1977) - never

37 - Pittsburgh Pirates - 1979 - 1979

33 - Baltimore Orioles - 1983 - 1983

32 - Detroit Tigers - 1984 - 2012

I'm with you if we can get some good pieces for Cutch them trade him, I personally think his best days are behind him. However do not give him away. Based on the Lariano fiasco I have little faith in NH ability to work a good trade. Cutch might have a good year or 2 left in him but probably not for the Pirates.



35080F15080F610 wrote: Meh.....

If we can improve the team in the future, I've got no problem dealing him.

He's a great baseball player and an even better person, so that will be missed, but at the end of the day, the Pirates are what is left, not individual players.



While I agree last off-season was less than stellar, so why use that as a reason the keep a player that you can use to improve the team going forward?



And if the offer isn't what we need it to be, then keeping him is OK as well.

just read the article below from Bucconation.



Sure trading Cutch could be a good idea, but it depends upon return. There is no way it is a slam dunk and we'll have to see what happens. My view is if he is dealt it has to make the team stronger in 2017 not just potentially 2018 or later. Being able to sign someone like Derek Holland doesn't count either to me.



https://bucconation.wordpress.com/2016/ ... -stronger/