272C24282D2C377274033A222B2C2C6D202C430 wrote: The rotation looks set to me. I don't know what they will do in that department. Of course, an upgrade can be made from Kuhl. He is probably the worse going forward based on results.
I can see Luplow part of the future with the way he rose through the minors this year. I am just not sure if he is better than Polanco. It wouldn't surprise me to see Polanco traded for a nice return.
I don't think Polanco gets you the "nice" return you think he does. Guy is an enigma. What has he done exactly to land a "nice" return?
They need another pitcher in the rotation. They needed one this year and failed to get one.
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
4348404C4948531610675E464F4848094448270 wrote: If Kang comes back, he can make a huge difference. A full season of Marte will be huge too. If not, they need to upgrade 3B so Freese can be used as a main bench player. The bench needs help too even though I think Moroff and Diaz can hold their own. A healthy Polanco should help. Polanco is starting to hit his prime years and had a very solid 2016.
Sure, there are some "ifs", but I do feel most of the line up is in place. The 2015 and 2016 teams were in the top half in offense. There is no reason why they can't get back to that next year. The offense has been pretty bad this year, but they also missed a few starters and got rid of a bunch of guys who didn't produce.
So, you are all about the status quo it seems absent adding random backups. Status quo doesn't work. You need a lot to happen for this offense in the top half. If most of the lineup is in place, this team isn't going anywhere IMO.
Sure, there are some "ifs", but I do feel most of the line up is in place. The 2015 and 2016 teams were in the top half in offense. There is no reason why they can't get back to that next year. The offense has been pretty bad this year, but they also missed a few starters and got rid of a bunch of guys who didn't produce.
So, you are all about the status quo it seems absent adding random backups. Status quo doesn't work. You need a lot to happen for this offense in the top half. If most of the lineup is in place, this team isn't going anywhere IMO.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
426F62737465723231000 wrote: What is the point of clearing everyone out and rebuilding?
You could rebuild 100 times and maybe end up with this young, this talented and this cheap of a team once or twice.
We aren't allowed to sign real meaningful free agents and we aren't allowed to trade prospects for ML talent. That has to.change or there's no point in caring.
WE MUST ADD. We've needed to add for 2 years now. The first step is seeing the commitment from the FO and ownership to win. They need to add. If we lose, we lose.
This is exactly my concern. What's the point of rebuilding when the goal is to endure the growing pains while you develop a few productive players who can be traded for another rebuilding plan?
If the Pirates were to add a true high end pitcher and 3rd base, that would be great. But there is exactly 0.00% chance of either being added. Moustakas - sure! But we'll be trolling in the Trevor Plouffe depths. Same with pitcher - an intentional rehab job.
The Pirates need more than a 3rd and starter because they won't fill those holes with quality. Handled correctly, a carefully rebuilt team (shedding payroll) would allow Neal to get creative. Trade two of the outfielders, Cole, package Cervelli and I think Neal can build a better team for NEXT year compared to this team with a non-impact 3rd and starter.
Everyone is saying "ADD". Trust me, they will. The Pirates are surely kicking Bartolo Colon's tires right now! Is Vogie still around?
2017 off season is very different than the 2015.
You could rebuild 100 times and maybe end up with this young, this talented and this cheap of a team once or twice.
We aren't allowed to sign real meaningful free agents and we aren't allowed to trade prospects for ML talent. That has to.change or there's no point in caring.
WE MUST ADD. We've needed to add for 2 years now. The first step is seeing the commitment from the FO and ownership to win. They need to add. If we lose, we lose.
This is exactly my concern. What's the point of rebuilding when the goal is to endure the growing pains while you develop a few productive players who can be traded for another rebuilding plan?
If the Pirates were to add a true high end pitcher and 3rd base, that would be great. But there is exactly 0.00% chance of either being added. Moustakas - sure! But we'll be trolling in the Trevor Plouffe depths. Same with pitcher - an intentional rehab job.
The Pirates need more than a 3rd and starter because they won't fill those holes with quality. Handled correctly, a carefully rebuilt team (shedding payroll) would allow Neal to get creative. Trade two of the outfielders, Cole, package Cervelli and I think Neal can build a better team for NEXT year compared to this team with a non-impact 3rd and starter.
Everyone is saying "ADD". Trust me, they will. The Pirates are surely kicking Bartolo Colon's tires right now! Is Vogie still around?
2017 off season is very different than the 2015.
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
There's hardly bad payroll to shed and there is already payroll room. I'm all for trading Polanco. It will be a sell low situation compared to last year but luplow will be the replacement. That's the problem. It's not getting rid of him, it's who the FO is clearly going to try to use when/if that happens. And there will be the same people that support it.
Luplow, I like. Like the pop. Defense sucks but he's not an outfielder. Nice to see non-prospects put it together and move fast since the "prospects" never seem to deliver on the high faluten praise that's laid on them coming through the system. Don't like him as "plan A" if Polanco is traded. Maybe 2019 kid.
Cervelli. That's a 10 million albatross for 2018, but if he's a quality backup playing 70 games next year, you're still only maybe 5 mil over market on him.
Could always package him with a prospect to shed the salary. We're pretty good at that
We need power and slugging. I know we aren't signing a 3bman. We never would have traded for SRod if we were serious about getting a 3bman. But if we add a bonafide power hitting OF, and some how Kang miraculously shows up, we've got a chance to get up in the top half offensively.
At minimum, OF, quality SP, bullpen. Then pray for Kang
Luplow, I like. Like the pop. Defense sucks but he's not an outfielder. Nice to see non-prospects put it together and move fast since the "prospects" never seem to deliver on the high faluten praise that's laid on them coming through the system. Don't like him as "plan A" if Polanco is traded. Maybe 2019 kid.
Cervelli. That's a 10 million albatross for 2018, but if he's a quality backup playing 70 games next year, you're still only maybe 5 mil over market on him.
Could always package him with a prospect to shed the salary. We're pretty good at that
We need power and slugging. I know we aren't signing a 3bman. We never would have traded for SRod if we were serious about getting a 3bman. But if we add a bonafide power hitting OF, and some how Kang miraculously shows up, we've got a chance to get up in the top half offensively.
At minimum, OF, quality SP, bullpen. Then pray for Kang
-
rucker59@gmail.com
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
4E474F5E502A0 wrote: There's hardly bad payroll to shed and there is already payroll room. I'm all for trading Polanco. It will be a sell low situation compared to last year but luplow will be the replacement. That's the problem. It's not getting rid of him, it's who the FO is clearly going to try to use when/if that happens. And there will be the same people that support it.
Luplow, I like. Like the pop. Defense sucks but he's not an outfielder. Nice to see non-prospects put it together and move fast since the "prospects" never seem to deliver on the high faluten praise that's laid on them coming through the system. Don't like him as "plan A" if Polanco is traded. Maybe 2019 kid.
Cervelli. That's a 10 million albatross for 2018, but if he's a quality backup playing 70 games next year, you're still only maybe 5 mil over market on him.
Could always package him with a prospect to shed the salary. We're pretty good at that
We need power and slugging. I know we aren't signing a 3bman. We never would have traded for SRod if we were serious about getting a 3bman. But if we add a bonafide power hitting OF, and some how Kang miraculously shows up, we've got a chance to get up in the top half offensively.
At minimum, OF, quality SP, bullpen. Then pray for Kang
I get it. It's better than doing nothing. But the scenario you describe is AAAA stuff. Unless Nutting changes this off season (possible because the bottom is going to drop out of his $1B toy) there is simply no room for new payroll.
There are no MLB bad contracts on this team. But for the Pirates, literally, anything over $5M that does not produce at about a $10M rate is "bad". If I had my wish I'd keep Cutch and JHay and trade the rest of "the bad contracts".
We've already held on too long for guys like Polanco and Marte. They're not bringing a WS to Pittsburgh and now they're not bringing and value either.
I don't think this is the way a ML team should be run, but the Pirates aren't run like a ML team and until that changes Neal will have to be as creative as possible around the edges.
I'll put it this way - next year I'd rather lose 100 games than 85. There is no way tinkering around with this team does anything except try for mediocrity in the name of competitiveness. The right moves and next year could be interesting.
Luplow, I like. Like the pop. Defense sucks but he's not an outfielder. Nice to see non-prospects put it together and move fast since the "prospects" never seem to deliver on the high faluten praise that's laid on them coming through the system. Don't like him as "plan A" if Polanco is traded. Maybe 2019 kid.
Cervelli. That's a 10 million albatross for 2018, but if he's a quality backup playing 70 games next year, you're still only maybe 5 mil over market on him.
Could always package him with a prospect to shed the salary. We're pretty good at that
We need power and slugging. I know we aren't signing a 3bman. We never would have traded for SRod if we were serious about getting a 3bman. But if we add a bonafide power hitting OF, and some how Kang miraculously shows up, we've got a chance to get up in the top half offensively.
At minimum, OF, quality SP, bullpen. Then pray for Kang
I get it. It's better than doing nothing. But the scenario you describe is AAAA stuff. Unless Nutting changes this off season (possible because the bottom is going to drop out of his $1B toy) there is simply no room for new payroll.
There are no MLB bad contracts on this team. But for the Pirates, literally, anything over $5M that does not produce at about a $10M rate is "bad". If I had my wish I'd keep Cutch and JHay and trade the rest of "the bad contracts".
We've already held on too long for guys like Polanco and Marte. They're not bringing a WS to Pittsburgh and now they're not bringing and value either.
I don't think this is the way a ML team should be run, but the Pirates aren't run like a ML team and until that changes Neal will have to be as creative as possible around the edges.
I'll put it this way - next year I'd rather lose 100 games than 85. There is no way tinkering around with this team does anything except try for mediocrity in the name of competitiveness. The right moves and next year could be interesting.
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
I don't think it's AAAA. If you trade Polanco and sign a Jay Bruce AND land a legit Starter and find two pen pieces I think 85-87 wins would be a real possibility.
If we do the above and Kang shows up ready to play, we awoukd really be in business. (Unlikely, but a chance). If we do nothing or sell off and Kang shows up it will be a hugely wasted opportunity
We are going to lose about 87 this year with the team as rostered, with half a season of Marte and a huge hole in the OF and lineup all season thanks to Polanco/Jaso/etc All starters are back.
A middle of the order power hitter plugged into that hole can help alot.
I think If we sell off, we will be back in the wilderness for 3 years, minimum, only to arrive back in a similar spot. Needing to add 2-3 legit guys.
If the plan is to do essentially nothing, as Dognot suggested (add bullpen), sure we might as well sell.
This is a very good free agent pool of players and the opportunity to add those pieces is here and now. NH could always grow a set, and actually try to make a high impact trade as well.
If we do the above and Kang shows up ready to play, we awoukd really be in business. (Unlikely, but a chance). If we do nothing or sell off and Kang shows up it will be a hugely wasted opportunity
We are going to lose about 87 this year with the team as rostered, with half a season of Marte and a huge hole in the OF and lineup all season thanks to Polanco/Jaso/etc All starters are back.
A middle of the order power hitter plugged into that hole can help alot.
I think If we sell off, we will be back in the wilderness for 3 years, minimum, only to arrive back in a similar spot. Needing to add 2-3 legit guys.
If the plan is to do essentially nothing, as Dognot suggested (add bullpen), sure we might as well sell.
This is a very good free agent pool of players and the opportunity to add those pieces is here and now. NH could always grow a set, and actually try to make a high impact trade as well.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
3F363E2F215B0 wrote: I don't think it's AAAA. If you trade Polanco and sign a Jay Bruce AND land a legit Starter and find two pen pieces I think 85-87 wins would be a real possibility.
If we do the above and Kang shows up ready to play, we awoukd really be in business. (Unlikely, but a chance). If we do nothing or sell off and Kang shows up it will be a hugely wasted opportunity
We are going to lose about 87 this year with the team as rostered, with half a season of Marte and a huge hole in the OF and lineup all season thanks to Polanco/Jaso/etc All starters are back.
A middle of the order power hitter plugged into that hole can help alot.
I think If we sell off, we will be back in the wilderness for 3 years, minimum, only to arrive back in a similar spot. Needing to add 2-3 legit guys.
If the plan is to do essentially nothing, as Dognot suggested (add bullpen), sure we might as well sell.
This is a very good free agent pool of players and the opportunity to add those pieces is here and now. NH could always grow a set, and actually try to make a high impact trade as well.
If the Pirates add Bruce and a quality starter I'll be all in with you. I'll also be shocked, although as i said before, I think Nutting could get pressured into freeing up some $$ to protect his investment. Otherwise the Pirates simply won't do the deals you're rightfully suggesting.
Otherwise I suspect a couple middling additions. This is the one thing I don't want to happen.
If we do the above and Kang shows up ready to play, we awoukd really be in business. (Unlikely, but a chance). If we do nothing or sell off and Kang shows up it will be a hugely wasted opportunity
We are going to lose about 87 this year with the team as rostered, with half a season of Marte and a huge hole in the OF and lineup all season thanks to Polanco/Jaso/etc All starters are back.
A middle of the order power hitter plugged into that hole can help alot.
I think If we sell off, we will be back in the wilderness for 3 years, minimum, only to arrive back in a similar spot. Needing to add 2-3 legit guys.
If the plan is to do essentially nothing, as Dognot suggested (add bullpen), sure we might as well sell.
This is a very good free agent pool of players and the opportunity to add those pieces is here and now. NH could always grow a set, and actually try to make a high impact trade as well.
If the Pirates add Bruce and a quality starter I'll be all in with you. I'll also be shocked, although as i said before, I think Nutting could get pressured into freeing up some $$ to protect his investment. Otherwise the Pirates simply won't do the deals you're rightfully suggesting.
Otherwise I suspect a couple middling additions. This is the one thing I don't want to happen.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
7B6B6A5D4B4B47280 wrote: The rotation looks set to me. I don't know what they will do in that department. Of course, an upgrade can be made from Kuhl. He is probably the worse going forward based on results.
I can see Luplow part of the future with the way he rose through the minors this year. I am just not sure if he is better than Polanco. It wouldn't surprise me to see Polanco traded for a nice return.
I don't think Polanco gets you the "nice" return you think he does. Guy is an enigma. What has he done exactly to land a "nice" return?
They need another pitcher in the rotation. They needed one this year and failed to get one.
It's to early to give up on Polanco unless you can get a nice hall. The guy has a lot of tools and hasn't been around long enough to see what he can do. This was pretty much a lost season for him, hurt most of the season. I say keep him unless you get a offer you can't refuse and with Neal I don't trust his judgement at all.
I can see Luplow part of the future with the way he rose through the minors this year. I am just not sure if he is better than Polanco. It wouldn't surprise me to see Polanco traded for a nice return.
I don't think Polanco gets you the "nice" return you think he does. Guy is an enigma. What has he done exactly to land a "nice" return?
They need another pitcher in the rotation. They needed one this year and failed to get one.
It's to early to give up on Polanco unless you can get a nice hall. The guy has a lot of tools and hasn't been around long enough to see what he can do. This was pretty much a lost season for him, hurt most of the season. I say keep him unless you get a offer you can't refuse and with Neal I don't trust his judgement at all.
-
fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3591
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
In my opinion I would trade Marte before I would move Polanco. I know Marte is supposed to replace Cutch if Cutch moves on, but I am not impressed with Marte's hitting and his lack of hustle at times.
For 2018 The Bucs Need A Lefty Starting Pitcher
7975742F262F272A2D32281F0 wrote: In my opinion I would trade Marte before I would move Polanco. I know Marte is supposed to replace Cutch if Cutch moves on, but I am not impressed with Marte's hitting and his lack of hustle at times.
Depending upon what Bucs think he is going to do as far as improvement I would keep Polanco too as he is potential left handed power bat. Marte has great defense and speed but if Polanco can develop 30 homer power and improve his defense he is the one to keep.
Depending upon what Bucs think he is going to do as far as improvement I would keep Polanco too as he is potential left handed power bat. Marte has great defense and speed but if Polanco can develop 30 homer power and improve his defense he is the one to keep.