OnlyBucs

4E6F674E656D0A0 wrote: My only encounter with Bonds was bad. He acted like a jerk and I was a kid. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a great baseball player. There are many crappy people in all the American sport Hall of Fames.



Bonds is the only [highlight]"best ever" not to win a Championship.[/highlight] All the other "best ever" in their sport won a title. That is a knock against him for sure, but shouldn't hurt him for that title in a team sport.



In my opinion, Bonds is the best ever. With that said, I agree with his number being retired in SF and not in Pittsburgh. 


This is fun Dog, blowing your now [highlight]qualified designation for Bonds as the greatest ever.[/highlight]  I have a candidate that will blow away that qualification.  One Theodore Samuel Williams.  Just take a look at the stats and his 1941 season.  Nough said.




I wasn't disqualifying Bonds, just pointing it out.  Championships are often mentioned when discussing the best ever and people say, "but they didn't win the big one". 



Ted Williams is a perfect example.  He is mentioned a lot as "best ever" and he also never won a Championship.  Also like Bonds, he didn't perform very well in his only post-season.  Bonds did have a great 2002 run, especially in the World Series.  Outside of that year, Bonds was pretty bad in post-season play.


I guess you missed the point again Dog, perhaps instead of the highlighted phrase I should have used "you are changing the rules now about what type of "greatest ever" player Bonds is.  I think you need to do a bit of research or just use some common sense when you make statements like you have done twice now about Bonds.



I do believe his is closer to being the greatest player never to win a championship that just greatest ever.  No doubt that the steroid era and Bond's crazy change of physique have tainted his accomplishments and have hindered his getting into the HOF.




You are right.  I am missing your point.  I don't even understand your use of quotes in this post.  What common sense am I not using?  Are you saying when the term "greatest ever" is brought up that Bonds does not come up in that discussion?  I actually brought up a knock on Bonds about his lack of championships. Then you said Ted Williams was better in that category?



What does this mean: "I do believe his is closer to being the greatest player never to win a championship that just greatest ever." You just brought up Ted Williams. But now Bonds is better than Williams? Yes, very confusing.



There is no "greatest ever".  It is all an opinion.  Go tell some 20 year olds that Michael Jordan is better than Lebron James and see their reaction.

I despise Bonds but that's beside the point. I had come to hate him before he left the Pirates. My disagreement with Dog is on whether Bonds is the greatest of all time. Considering that his steroid use was the worst kept secret of all time, I think we should look at his stats prior to when his HR totals began to skyrocket at age 35. Up until that time he had played 14 years and put up HOF worthy stats. So if he gets in I won't lose sleep. But I don't think he's even in the discussion of "best ever" without the bogus stats he put up from age 35-39 thanks to modern science. I know there are jerks in the HOF. I'm ok with that. And thru age 34 he had 445 HRs, 1,249 RBIs, .288 BA and .968 OPS. That could get him in the HOF. But he was obviously doping when he added the 317 HRs, 697 RBIs, .322 BA and 1.241 OPS from ages 35-42.



Bonds' stats were very consistent year to year thru age 33. According to ESPN, he started juicing at age 34. but missed much of that year due to injuries. He came back a different player with a different body the next year. To use the total body of his work, much of which is obviously tainted, as evidence that he's the best ever just doesn't fly.

1C313C2D2A3B2C6C6F5E0 wrote: I despise Bonds but that's beside the point. I had come to hate him before he left the Pirates. My disagreement with Dog is on whether Bonds is the greatest of all time. Considering that his steroid use was the worst kept secret of all time, I think we should look at his stats prior to when his HR totals began to skyrocket at age 35. Up until that time he had played 14 years and put up HOF worthy stats. So if he gets in I won't lose sleep. But I don't think he's even in the discussion of "best ever" without the bogus stats he put up from age 35-39 thanks to modern science. I know there are jerks in the HOF. I'm ok with that. And thru age 34 he had 445 HRs, 1,249 RBIs, .288 BA and .968 OPS. That could get him in the HOF. But he was obviously doping when he added the 317 HRs, 697 RBIs, .322 BA and 1.241 OPS from ages 35-42.



Bonds' stats were very consistent year to year thru age 33.  According to ESPN, he started juicing at age 34. but missed much of that year due to injuries. He came back a different player with a different body the next year. To use the total body of his work, much of which is obviously tainted, as evidence that he's the best ever just doesn't fly.


I totally agree and understand your despise of him. Without his 35-39 years of age, he would not be considered the best ever. Still a hall of famer, but not best ever. Good post.

This is an interesting discussion. I guess my first feelings weren't even regarding the Bonds issue one way or the other, but about how right as we're slamming the book on one great chapter of Pirates history, we're going to have to witness a celebration of the last one from the same team.

While sentiment to elect Bonds to the HOF seems to be growing I for one given an vote for the inductees would not elect Bonds, though there is no absolute proof that he used PEDs you just do not get as big as Bonds did without them. Guy was a skinny kid when he came to and left the Bucs. Oh he did fill out some as he grew with the Bucs but not to the extent he did with the Giants. If he goes into the HOF he can do it as a Giant. As for Bucs retiring his # I do not think his body of work during his run with the Bucs deserves it be done. So let the cheater get his # retired someplace else but not in the Burgh.

I challenge any Bonds supporter to look at his career stats and not laugh at the ridiculous nature of them. It is overwhelmingly true that players fall off in their early 30s. Even more so after 35. Once in a blue moon, a player will stay respectable in those post 35 years. Bonds' stats at 35 on are a joke. There is nothing real or believable about them. No proof he did PEDs? Please.

776A4E4C42270 wrote: I challenge any Bonds supporter to look at his career stats and not laugh at the ridiculous nature of them.  It is overwhelmingly true that players fall off in their early 30s.  Even more so after 35.  Once in a blue moon, a player will stay respectable in those post 35 years.  Bonds' stats at 35 on are a joke.  There is nothing real or believable about them.  No proof he did PEDs?  Please.


We are supposed to be living in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. That is rarely the case. Bonds is an example of that in the baseball world.

4D507476781D0 wrote: I challenge any Bonds supporter to look at his career stats and not laugh at the ridiculous nature of them.  It is overwhelmingly true that players fall off in their early 30s.  Even more so after 35.  Once in a blue moon, a player will stay respectable in those post 35 years.  Bonds' stats at 35 on are a joke.  There is nothing real or believable about them.  No proof he did PEDs?  Please.


The stat that is the biggest joke for Bonds is the walks. How can anyone walk 232 times in a season.? a 582 OBA in 2002. Somehow Bonds was able to play several years with a tiny strikezone.



Hank Aaron hit 47 homers when he was 3740 in 392 at bats when 39.

1C3A3B2C3A2A590 wrote: I challenge any Bonds supporter to look at his career stats and not laugh at the ridiculous nature of them.  It is overwhelmingly true that players fall off in their early 30s.  Even more so after 35.  Once in a blue moon, a player will stay respectable in those post 35 years.  Bonds' stats at 35 on are a joke.  There is nothing real or believable about them.  No proof he did PEDs?  Please.


The stat that is the biggest joke for Bonds is the walks.  How can anyone walk 232 times in a season.? a 582 OBA in 2002.  Somehow Bonds was able to play several years with a tiny strikezone.



Hank Aaron hit 47 homers when he was 3740 in 392 at bats when 39.


And that tiny strike zone probably contributed as much to his home run binge as the 'roids did.

Many think his grandfathered in arm brace helped his smooth swing. His elbow never broke that plane.