OnlyBucs

032E23323524337370410 wrote: As I have said in past posts; I am a Hurdle supporter. PMike makes some solid comments regarding Hurdle. I’m sure Skinny will soon chime in to tell us why Hurdle is a moron. I share Skinny’s frustration; but it is not with Hurdle or NH but with Nutting.



As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since  a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.



One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.



Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
Hurdle should stick to philosophy cause he sure can't manage a baseball team.  We all get excited when we play above .500 baseball, but we forget what's inevitably coming.  This team will hit a very rough patch and Hurdle will manage with his little formula's as nothing wrong and continually put this team in bad situations cause he wants to stick with the formula.  This team can't win with a average manager (good guy), this team doesn't have the resources of LAD, NYY, Cubs, and on and on.  That means we have to excel in other ways.  I'm so tired of excuses for why we can't win.  Managers aren't the biggest financial expense of any team, but they can have the biggest impact on a team.  It happens time and time again in sports where a team hires the right guy and he turns a organization around.   CH is one of the longest tenured managers and we have nothing to show for it.    Excuses for batting guys like Cervelli 3rd for 4 weeks with nothing to show for it, batting Josh Bell 4th virtually all last year with 10 home runs, continually running out SRod to play 4 or 5 games a week, putting Watson in game situations after blowing 5 or 6 games in a row. 
You say Hurdle is one of the longest tenured managers with nothing to show for it. The facts do not agree with you. Let’s look at past Pirate Managers and judge them by playoff appearances as that is what ultimately counts.



Danny Murtaugh 14 Years, 5 Playoffs=36%

Chuck Tanner 9 Years, 1 Playoff=11%

Jim Leyland 11Years, 3 Playoffs=27%

Gene Lamont 4 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Lloyd McClendon 5 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Jim Tracy 2 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

John Russell 2 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Clint Hurdle 8 Years, 3 Playoffs=38%



Now, you can argue that Murtaugh and Tanner won World Series. Bottom line however is that Hurdle has the highest post season average.


Ok, so by these stats Hurdle is more successful than Murtaugh. Murtaugh won 2 World Series. Tanner won 1 World Series. Leyland went to 3 consecutive NLCS and was 1 game away from the World Series in 2 of them. After those 3, Hurdle has the next most years as a Pirate manager. His accomplishment is going to the Wild Card game 3 times in a row, winning once and then losing the Division Series before getting to the NLCs and not getting past the WC game the other 2 years. By the way, all those managers you're comparing him to never had an opportunity to be 1 of 2 Wild Card participants. In fact Murtaugh finished 2nd in 1958. Too bad. No Wild Card game for you! That makes him worse than Hurdle by your reasoning. And you noted it yourself that Russell, Tracy, McClendon and Lamont had fewer years to achieve playoff appearances, even if the rules had been changed for them to add a 2nd WC team.



You talk about "post season average" by creating your brand new stat of appearances vs seasons. So success vs failure doesn't matter. But how did they do when they got there? Murtaugh, who didn't get to go to a Wild Card game after finishing 2nd in 1958 had a WS win (4-3) in 1960, lost 0-3 in a playoff in 1970, had playoff off wins of 3-1 in 1971 and a WS win of 4-3, and a playoff loss of 0-3 in 1975. So if we can go beyond playoffs vs years, we see Murtaugh had a post season record on 11-13 or 45.8% wins. Leyland was 8-12 in 3 playoffs for a pct of 40.0 Hurdle went 3-5 in his 3 playoff years for a pct of 37.5. It's ok if you like Hurdle but cherrypicking such obscure stats to try to say he's better than other Pirate managers who had much greater success defies belief.
Whoa Bobster; don’t get your panties in a wad.

The comment made by Skinny was that CH was a long tenured Manager with nothing to show for it. I simply pointed out that statement is incorrect and in fact he has been one of the more successful managers. I looked at playoff appearances as that is what counts right? You could look at winning percentages. In that case Murtaugh is at the top. But Hurdle is #2. BTW I started with Murtaugh because I wanted to look at Managers I have seenin my lifetime. Here are the winning percentages:

Murtaugh- .540

Hurdle- .515

Tanner- .509

Leyland- .496

Lamont- .456

McClendon- .430

Tracy- .417

Russell .384



Either way Hurdle has been successful. It is hard to compare managers of different time periods. You can talk about Murtaugh not having the advantage of the WC. I can argue that Hurdle has the disadvantage of free agency. Murtaugh didn’t have to deal with Clemente, Stargell, Groat, Law, Blass leaving via free agency.

By the way; some folks have complained that Hurdle sometimes looks disingaged in the dugout. I can say for a fact that I have seen Murtaugh asleep in the dugout.



Anyway my point is that Hurdle has done a good job with what he has been given. To answer Skinny- NO I am absolutely not satisfied with the Pirates World Series drought. But I don’t blame Hurdle or even NH. I put the blame where it should be which is Pirate ownership

The earlier managers didn't have the benefit of a wild card, but similarly Hurdle's teams didn't have the benefit of being in a two-division NL; where they would have likely won at least one NL East title with a direct trip to the NLCS. I think his legacy would look a lot different, probably viewed on par with Leyland's (as a Pirate manager only, obv Jim Leyland went on to win a WS later).

694C4F4F5A714C444651230 wrote: As I have said in past posts; I am a Hurdle supporter. PMike makes some solid comments regarding Hurdle. I’m sure Skinny will soon chime in to tell us why Hurdle is a moron. I share Skinny’s frustration; but it is not with Hurdle or NH but with Nutting.



As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since  a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.



One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.



Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
Hurdle should stick to philosophy cause he sure can't manage a baseball team.  We all get excited when we play above .500 baseball, but we forget what's inevitably coming.  This team will hit a very rough patch and Hurdle will manage with his little formula's as nothing wrong and continually put this team in bad situations cause he wants to stick with the formula.  This team can't win with a average manager (good guy), this team doesn't have the resources of LAD, NYY, Cubs, and on and on.  That means we have to excel in other ways.  I'm so tired of excuses for why we can't win.  Managers aren't the biggest financial expense of any team, but they can have the biggest impact on a team.  It happens time and time again in sports where a team hires the right guy and he turns a organization around.   CH is one of the longest tenured managers and we have nothing to show for it.    Excuses for batting guys like Cervelli 3rd for 4 weeks with nothing to show for it, batting Josh Bell 4th virtually all last year with 10 home runs, continually running out SRod to play 4 or 5 games a week, putting Watson in game situations after blowing 5 or 6 games in a row. 
You say Hurdle is one of the longest tenured managers with nothing to show for it. The facts do not agree with you. Let’s look at past Pirate Managers and judge them by playoff appearances as that is what ultimately counts.



Danny Murtaugh 14 Years, 5 Playoffs=36%

Chuck Tanner 9 Years, 1 Playoff=11%

Jim Leyland 11Years, 3 Playoffs=27%

Gene Lamont 4 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Lloyd McClendon 5 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Jim Tracy 2 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

John Russell 2 Years, 0 Playoffs=0%

Clint Hurdle 8 Years, 3 Playoffs=38%



Now, you can argue that Murtaugh and Tanner won World Series. Bottom line however is that Hurdle has the highest post season average.


Ok, so by these stats Hurdle is more successful than Murtaugh. Murtaugh won 2 World Series. Tanner won 1 World Series. Leyland went to 3 consecutive NLCS and was 1 game away from the World Series in 2 of them. After those 3, Hurdle has the next most years as a Pirate manager. His accomplishment is going to the Wild Card game 3 times in a row, winning once and then losing the Division Series before getting to the NLCs and not getting past the WC game the other 2 years. By the way, all those managers you're comparing him to never had an opportunity to be 1 of 2 Wild Card participants. In fact Murtaugh finished 2nd in 1958. Too bad. No Wild Card game for you! That makes him worse than Hurdle by your reasoning. And you noted it yourself that Russell, Tracy, McClendon and Lamont had fewer years to achieve playoff appearances, even if the rules had been changed for them to add a 2nd WC team.



You talk about "post season average" by creating your brand new stat of appearances vs seasons. So success vs failure doesn't matter. But how did they do when they got there? Murtaugh, who didn't get to go to a Wild Card game after finishing 2nd in 1958 had a WS win (4-3) in 1960, lost 0-3 in a playoff in 1970, had playoff off wins of 3-1 in 1971 and a WS win of 4-3, and a playoff loss of 0-3 in 1975. So if we can go beyond playoffs vs years, we see Murtaugh had a post season record on 11-13 or 45.8% wins. Leyland was 8-12 in 3 playoffs for a pct of 40.0 Hurdle went 3-5 in his 3 playoff years for a pct of 37.5. It's ok if you like Hurdle but cherrypicking such obscure stats to try to say he's better than other Pirate managers who had much greater success defies belief.
Whoa Bobster; don’t get your panties in a wad.

The comment made by Skinny was that CH was a long tenured Manager with nothing to show for it. I simply pointed out that statement is incorrect and in fact he has been one of the more successful managers. I looked at playoff appearances as that is what counts right? You could look at winning percentages. In that case Murtaugh is at the top. But Hurdle is #2. BTW I started with Murtaugh because I wanted to look at Managers I have seenin my lifetime. Here are the winning percentages:

Murtaugh- .540

Hurdle- .515

Tanner- .509

Leyland- .496

Lamont- .456

McClendon- .430

Tracy- .417

Russell .384



Either way Hurdle has been successful. It is hard to compare managers of different time periods. You can talk about Murtaugh not having the advantage of the WC. I can argue that Hurdle has the disadvantage of free agency. Murtaugh didn’t have to deal with Clemente, Stargell, Groat, Law, Blass leaving via free agency.

By the way; some folks have complained that Hurdle sometimes looks disingaged in the dugout. I can say for a fact that I have seen Murtaugh asleep in the dugout.



Anyway my point is that Hurdle has done a good job with what he has been given. To answer Skinny- NO I am absolutely not satisfied with the Pirates World Series drought. But I don’t blame Hurdle or even NH. I put the blame where it should be which is Pirate ownership
This is the spoiled kid argument. Daddy if you don't buy me what ever I want, it's all your fault I'm not successful. Grow up put on your big boy pants and get in there and compete. Yeah you may have to work a little harder, be a little smarter, do things a little different than LAD, NYY, etc. but quit making excuses for Hurdle. When I see him doing these things I'll give him credit. He's the problem not the solution. I've said it once I'll say it again. We know what he's going to do, give away ballgames we should win, and he will eventually kill the spirit of this team and they will give up. How many times do we have to see it.

The problem with your argument Skinny is that you only recollect the decisions that don’t work out not the ones that do. Also you have many times complained about Clint’s Sunday lineup of resting regulars and playing subs yet that was also what Jim Leyland did. Clint is given a 25 man roster. What good is it if you are not going to give the subs chances to compete. Furthermore if you have so little confidence in them then they shouldn’t be on the roster in the first place.

Let me ask you this:

If Hurdle is such a terrible Manager how in the hell has he managed to have a winning record with the Pirates with a payroll that is consistently in the bottom 5 of baseball?



Again, Hurdle is not the problem. My goodness, the Bucs have the best record in the NL with a team that has been decimated by injuries. I think he has done a great job of competing with the roster he has(of course the starting pitching is hugely responsible for the success). Have to give NH some credit with the Lyles and Cabrera signings. I don’t think anyone on this board (myself included) thought those would work out.

Enjoy the ride!!

5A7F7C7C69427F777562100 wrote: The problem with your argument Skinny is that you only recollect the decisions that don’t work out not the ones that do. Also you have many times complained about Clint’s Sunday lineup of resting regulars and playing subs yet that was also what Jim Leyland did. Clint is given a 25 man roster. What good is it if you are not going to give the subs chances to compete. Furthermore if you have so little confidence in them then they shouldn’t be on the roster in the first place.

Let me ask you this:

If Hurdle is such a terrible Manager how in the hell has he managed to have a winning record with the Pirates with a payroll that is consistently in the bottom 5 of baseball?



Again, Hurdle is not the problem. My goodness, the Bucs have the best record in the NL with a team that has been decimated by injuries. I think he has done a great job of competing with the roster he has(of course the starting pitching is hugely responsible for the success). Have to give NH some credit with the Lyles and Cabrera signings. I don’t think anyone on this board (myself included) thought those would work out.

Enjoy the ride!!
Oh I'm enjoying it, but in the back of my mind, I know what's coming. Running one of our relievers out in a crucial situation after he's blown 4 or 5 games in a row just to show everyone he's still the manager and to the heck with winning the game, or putting a batter under the medoza line batting 3rd in the line up time and time again. That's Hurdle history and it's going to happen, and it's going to hurt the team an will most likely will break the spirit of the team. It's coming, count on it.

TRUE OR FALSE: Jim Leyland managing this team has about the same record as Clint Hurdle managing this team

0F2A29293C172A222037450 wrote: The problem with your argument Skinny is that you only recollect the decisions that don’t work out not the ones that do. Also you have many times complained about Clint’s Sunday lineup of resting regulars and playing subs yet that was also what Jim Leyland did. Clint is given a 25 man roster. What good is it if you are not going to give the subs chances to compete. Furthermore if you have so little confidence in them then they shouldn’t be on the roster in the first place.

Let me ask you this:

If Hurdle is such a terrible Manager how in the hell has he managed to have a winning record with the Pirates with a payroll that is consistently in the bottom 5 of baseball?



Again, Hurdle is not the problem. My goodness, the Bucs have the best record in the NL with a team that has been decimated by injuries. I think he has done a great job of competing with the roster he has(of course the starting pitching is hugely responsible for the success). Have to give NH some credit with the Lyles and Cabrera signings. I don’t think anyone on this board (myself included) thought those would work out.

Enjoy the ride!!


Good points! I realize it’s super early, but this is remarkable. And frankly, our record should be A LOT better. Without a whole heck of a lot of mental gymnastics, it’s not hard to imagine a scenario where we were 14-4, 15-3, or even 16-2.



The injuries to this team have been probably as bad as to any team in baseball. Consider, they’ve lost to injury: their top four outfielders, their backup catcher (who I still believe to be their best catcher in reality), and their top two shortstops (perhaps may wind up being a blessing in disguise), and three key pieces to the bullpen. Yet here they are. Remarkable.

685A56564270535A57525D5A3B0 wrote: The earlier managers didn't have the benefit of a wild card, but similarly Hurdle's teams didn't have the benefit of being in a two-division NL; where they would have likely won at least one NL East title with a direct trip to the NLCS.  I think his legacy would look a lot different, probably viewed on par with Leyland's (as a Pirate manager only, obv Jim Leyland went on to win a WS later).


why would two divisions make it easier? The team was competing against 5 other teams in the division. I think it is easier now to get into post season but harder to get into Series.

Today's game (3-2 loss to SF) highlights a chief complaint I have with formula managing. And it's common not only for Hurdle but just about every MLB manager.



The Pirates were batting in the bottom of the 8th trailing 3-2. Kingham was warming. But even the announcers acknowledged that if the Pirates took the lead Vazquez would start throwing. In other words, Vazquez would pitch the 9th if the Pirates took a lead of 4-3, 5-3 or 6-3. All save situations. If they didn't score and entered the 9th trailing 3-2, Kingham would pitch (which is what happened). Trailing 3-2 in the 9th they could not afford to give up any more runs. So Kingham was trusted to shut SF down in the 9th. He got into trouble but at least didn't give up any runs. If they had taken a 4-3 lead, the same Kingham who was expected to shut SF down in the 9th would not have pitched because only Vazquez could then be trusted to shut down the same SF lineup in the 9th. However if the Pirates had rallied for a huge lead in the bottom of the 8th so that there was no save situation, it would again fall to Kingham to pitch the 9th because it wouldn't matter if he gave up some runs. Yet he was expected to give up no runs trailing 3-2. So a reliever can have the confidence of his manager to shut down the other team only if it does not involve a save situation, which requires someone else to shut them down. The save stat is the only stat that dictates how a manager utilizes his players. And I'm sure that if they changed the rules for what constitutes a save, managers would utilize their BPs differently. Maybe someday managers will become obsessed with the RBI stat and keep their best hitter on the bench waiting to use him to PH when there's a runner on 3B and less than 2 outs. Stats shouldn't dictate how players are used but the save stat does exactly that.

292122150326010E600 wrote: The problem with your argument Skinny is that you only recollect the decisions that don’t work out not the ones that do. Also you have many times complained about Clint’s Sunday lineup of resting regulars and playing subs yet that was also what Jim Leyland did. Clint is given a 25 man roster. What good is it if you are not going to give the subs chances to compete. Furthermore if you have so little confidence in them then they shouldn’t be on the roster in the first place.

Let me ask you this:

If Hurdle is such a terrible Manager how in the hell has he managed to have a winning record with the Pirates with a payroll that is consistently in the bottom 5 of baseball?



Again, Hurdle is not the problem. My goodness, the Bucs have the best record in the NL with a team that has been decimated by injuries. I think he has done a great job of competing with the roster he has(of course the starting pitching is hugely responsible for the success). Have to give NH some credit with the Lyles and Cabrera signings. I don’t think anyone on this board (myself included) thought those would work out.

Enjoy the ride!!


Good points! I realize it’s super early, but this is remarkable. And frankly, our record should be A LOT better. Without a whole heck of a lot of mental gymnastics, it’s not hard to imagine a scenario where we were 14-4, 15-3, or even 16-2.



The injuries to this team have been probably as bad as to any team in baseball. Consider, they’ve lost to injury: their top four outfielders, their backup catcher (who I still believe to be their best catcher in reality), and their top two shortstops (perhaps may wind up being a blessing in disguise), and three key pieces to the bullpen. Yet here they are. Remarkable.


So far, this is not the season to be complaining about Clint.  He's done a very good job to this point.  I've complained a lot in the past, but it's only fair to give him credit when he deserves it. 



Today is an example: I think pulling Archer was the right move after 5 innings even though it shortened the bench when they would have benefited greatly with another pinch hitter available late.  In the 5th inning, no one knew whether the Pirates would need a pinch hitter in the 9th, but he did have the opportunity to score in the bottom of the 5th with a man on 2nd.  That was a play to win and even though it did not work, I think it was the right move.