OnlyBucs

082528393E2F38787B4A0 wrote: I'm in the camp that hopes they don't go out and sign anyone who is going to improve the team much.  IMO, just missing the playoffs is no better than coming in last place.  We are not a play off team.  There is no reason to sign middling players to be a solid 75 win team.  Lose and lose big.  Get your high draft pick.



The only reason to sign anyone decent is to trade them for more prospects at the trade deadline. 



A secondary reason to sign a veteran player would be to provide a good veteran presence that demonstrates to younger players how to be a good pro baseball player mentally.  I do think they could use a hitter and pitcher that could fill that role.


Agreed. I'm a Philadelphia Sixers fan who was totally on board for the tanking part of The Process. Barely making or barely missing the playoffs is the worst place to be. The team has no realistic hope of making a playoff run and mid round draft position makes it harder to get the truly talented players needed to become a realistic contender.



If management is committed to building a true winner, it's going to be a long process. That's also why I'm not too worried about the payroll. It's going to be low, but I don't see a need to spend now given the talent.



(Although it does make me mad that Nutting gets to pocket more team revenues.)


They don't have to tank to get a high draft pick. I don't think there's much doubt that they will have one of MLB's worst records this year and probably for several years. And the MLB draft is very different from NFL and NBA where there are a couple can't miss superstars waiting to be chosen. In a sport where even the top picks needs several years of minor league seasoning to be ready, there are no guarantees that the top 2 or 3 picks will turn out to be the standouts of their draft. You can look at any year's draft and see unproductive early picks and stars who were mid to low 1st rounders. I think the Pirates are rebuilding and will lose enough games without tanking to result in high draft picks. But in baseball there's no point in trying to lose games to ensure the highest possible pick when subsequent picks could turn out better anyway.


The baseball draft is different and the path is much longer to the majors than in other sports. However, the Astros and the Nats are perfect examples of using high end draft picks to create the superstar foundation of their teams. They Pirates have not stacked together successful top picks like the Astros and Nationals. The Nats and Astros had more top 10 picks and hit big on more of them than the Pirates.



2009

1. Nats - Strasburg

4. Pirates - Tony Sanchez

10 - Nats - Drew Storen



2010

1. Nats - Harper

2. Pirates - Taillon

8. Houston - Delino DeShields Jr.



2011

1. Pirates - Cole

6. Nats - Rendon

11. Houston - Springer



2012

1. Houston - Correa

8. Pirates - Appel

16 - Nats - Giolito



2013

1. Houston - Appel

9. Pirates - Meadows

14. Pirates - McGuire



2014

1. Houston - Brady Aiken

24. Pirates Tucker



2015

2. Houston - Bregman

5. Houston - Kyle Tucker

19. Pirates - Newman

5D787B7B6E4578707265170 wrote: Also think that the best trade involving Marte would be Atlanta. They have the deepest farm system. I feel that they are all in, in regard to winning it all, and would be more than willing to trade prospects for Marte. Even include Kela.
I think the best trade fit involving Marte is definitely San Diego. They have multiple catching and pitching prospects the Bucs could choose from. I would like to see Campusano a one of their LH pitchers (not named Gore who is untouchable) I the deal


I think San Diego seems to have the best pieces for our roster as well. I just don't see Marte not getting traded this offseason. Despite teams holding on to their prospects more tightly, there seems to be a real need for an OF like Marte for several teams that want to make a run. Somebody will put together a package that works for us.

6F4E5B526A53485B4E5F3A0 wrote: Also think that the best trade involving Marte would be Atlanta. They have the deepest farm system. I feel that they are all in, in regard to winning it all, and would be more than willing to trade prospects for Marte. Even include Kela.
I think the best trade fit involving Marte is definitely San Diego. They have multiple catching and pitching prospects the Bucs could choose from. I would like to see Campusano a one of their LH pitchers (not named Gore who is untouchable) I the deal


I think San Diego seems to have the best pieces for our roster as well. I just don't see Marte not getting traded this offseason. Despite teams holding on to their prospects more tightly, there seems to be a real need for an OF like Marte for several teams that want to make a run. Somebody will put together a package that works for us. 




Agree that SD has the best assets as far as being a match for us.  However, I get a weird feeling that the return for Marte won't be as great as we all think.  I too think he won't get moved at least until the TDL. Better hope he rakes it up in. 2020 to maximize that return. Its a rebuild regardless if you deal him or not, so deal him, you may as well see what Bell brings back. Not sure his stock will be any higher.

I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not?

677C717079757A140 wrote: I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not?
The easy answer is that they are not owned by Nutting. Of course right now the emphasis in on a youthful rebuild rather than signing free agent veterans. That's fine but we've been thru this before. When NH/Coonelly took over, they attributed the low payroll to building with young players who didn't yet command high salaries and added that they would spend when the time was right. I believe NH and Coonelly were sincere when they said that. And it was easy for Nutting to go along with that as long as that "right time" was somewhere in the vague future. Of course we saw that when the team was winning, attendance set a franchise record, and only a few significant upgrades were needed, that right time never came. So we are once again in a situation where a low payroll is justified. But if the rebuild is successful and the team becomes on the verge of seriously competing, it will be up to Nutting to "write the check" (as Micheal Keaton once advised) and add players as other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to do. It's easy to say they'll spend at some unspecified time in the future as long as that time never comes. We saw it was a lie the last time they said that. It remains to be seen whether Nutting will spend the next time the time is right.

684548595E4F58181B2A0 wrote: I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not?
The easy answer is that they are not owned by Nutting. Of course right now the emphasis in on a youthful rebuild rather than signing free agent veterans. That's fine but we've been thru this before. When NH/Coonelly took over, they attributed the low payroll to building with young players who didn't yet command high salaries and added that they would spend when the time was right. I believe NH and Coonelly were sincere when they said that. And it was easy for Nutting to go along with that as long as that "right time" was somewhere in the vague future. Of course we saw that when the team was winning, attendance set a franchise record, and only a few significant upgrades were needed, that right time never came. So we are once again in a situation where a low payroll is justified. But if the rebuild is successful and the team becomes on the verge of seriously competing, it will be up to Nutting to "write the check" (as Micheal Keaton once advised) and add players as other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to do. It's easy to say they'll spend at some unspecified time in the future as long as that time never comes. We saw it was a lie the last time they said that. It remains to be seen whether Nutting will spend the next time the time is right.
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Well said.

6C777A7B727E711F0 wrote: I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not? I wish Nutting would fired the big three quicker than he did . It takes time to rework an organization and I think we are feeling the effects of that . Will there will be real change well that answer will come in time .

Agreed.



I think that Williams and Cherington deserve the benefit of a doubt.



Nutting? Not at all.

173E3834365B0 wrote: I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not?    I wish Nutting would fired the big three quicker than he did . It takes time to rework an organization and I think we are feeling the effects of that . Will there will be real change well that answer will come in time .






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As Bobster posted upthread. we have been through a few of these blow it up, start new, and rebuild and they promise to spend the money when the time is right. However, the time never seems to be right. Thus, I no longer listen to the spin. I don't care if they are "blowing it up", "rebuilding from within", or "spending when the time is right". I will criticize any efforts to dump salary regardless of what they call it. I will praise each and every move to bring in major league ballplayers regardless of what they call it. In line with that thinking, I commemd Cherington for bringing in Heredia.

415A57565F535C320 wrote: I wonder why other small market clubs like Milwaukee and Cincinnati are willing and able to sign players, but we are not?    I wish Nutting would fired the big three quicker than he did . It takes time to rework an organization and I think we are feeling the effects of that . Will there will be real change well that answer will come in time .






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As Bobster posted upthread. we have been through a few of these blow it up, start new, and rebuild and they promise to spend the money when the time is right.  However, the time never seems to be right.  Thus, I no longer listen to the spin.  I don't care if they are "blowing it up", "rebuilding from within", or "spending when the time is right".  I will criticize any efforts to dump salary regardless of what they call it.  I will praise each and every move to bring in major league ballplayers regardless of what they call it.  In line with that thinking, I commemd Cherington for bringing in Heredia.




That's a little generalistic though. There have been some players we would have been better off without acquiring, and others where we were better by cutting them loose.