OnlyBucs

7D485F5F546D5F5F54535F3A0 wrote: 25th in TBA.  Guy's gone.



28th in TERA.  Cherington hire.  Still here.  How many games will you win when you cough up 5.08 ERPG?



Answer:  61 if you're lucky.



Let's keep the guy.
I don't know if Marin is any good as a pitching coach or not. It's hard to tell when there seems to be so little pitching talent to work with. A few guys did well under Marin. Most didn't but then again most probably are not legit MLB pitchers. Keller seems to be more a product of hype than ability. He struggled under the previous coach and hasn't even fared well vs AAA batters.



Yeah, it probably makes a difference to BC that he hired Marin. He evaluated him prior to hiring him whereas holdovers from the previous regime were hired because someone else thought they would be good coaches and they had been here awhile. But it's not as if Cherington's hires have been getting a free ride for years and years. Marin's tenure has consisted of a 60 game mini-season when the minors were shut down and one full season with the minors operational in an organization that clearly lacked pitching talent when he arrived. So I can't blame BC for looking at a poor hitting team and thinking he might be able to hire a better batting coach or a better 3B coach than the last regime while also thinking Marin, who he personally evaluated, needs more time and more talented pitchers to determine if hiring him is going to work out or not.

I remember our past discussion, which I agreed with- where you used Leo Mazzili's record to make the point- we DNK just how much of a difference that PCs make, anyway.



It's the totality that ought to be alarming. Sure send a red ? that I can see.

One point, just to help it resonate:



5.08 TERA.



AL pitchers face 9 hitters full-time. Pirates pitchers face them occasionally. Most times, Pirates pitchers face only 8.



We're 28th.



Joey Cora was a problem. THIS is a problem.

5A6F7878734A78787374781D0 wrote: One point, just to help it resonate:



5.08 TERA.



AL pitchers face 9 hitters full-time.  Pirates pitchers face them occasionally.  Most times, Pirates pitchers face only 8.



We're 28th.



Joey Cora was a problem.  THIS is a problem.
Pitching was an absolute disaster this year. No question about it. In the NL only AZ had a worse team ERA. And, as you alluded to, even in the DH-laden AL, only Baltimore, which essentially had a AAA pitching staff, had a worse team ERA. So, like in any organization, an evaluation has to made as to whether the problem is the personnel on the mound, coaching, or a combination. The Pirates used 35 pitchers this year (plus 3 position players) most of which had little or no MLB experience. And not because those pitchers were rising young prospects. Most were castoffs from other teams and marginal minor leaguers on a team that had so few legit pitchers that they willingly settled for warm bodies who are unlikely to establish successful MLB careers.



So as far as Marin goes, it's neither an endorsement nor a condemnation. I think he'll be judged on how he does with a pitching staff that does not mainly consist of the crap being thrown against the wall to see what sticks. He hasn't had a chance to do that yet.



As far as Cherington goes, he's shown a short leash for some players he personally chose to take a flier on as well as a fairly short leash for the coaching staff he inherited. The 60 game mini-season in 2020 didn't give much opportunity to assess the coaches especially when there were no minor leagues from which to call up and work with young players. But before BC's first full season of 2021 was over he had fired Eckstein. And immediately after his first full season ended he fired Cora. So I believe even the coaches personally appointed by BC shouldn't get too comfortable once they've had a good chance to work with legit major leaguers and have an impact on the team.

Well stated.  Think I agree with all.  Our issues are many.  I dnk what the #1 is.  I dnk what #10 is.  I tend to focus on the basics.  Baserunning and whatever things that a base coach handles are important.  Hitting and pitching are so much more important in my eyes.  Our RD embarrasses me.  Tired of last place.  Tired of excuses.