I find it hard to believe they are trying to lose. Sorry, I don't buy that.
The last five years or so I understood the plan and could predict the future some what. I am not saying I agreed with every plan, but I at least understood it. Right now, I don't know the direction. There are a lot of things that need answered. This is a big off season to determine the direction, in my opinion.
I don't always believe "GM speak". I want to see the moves, the action. Talk is just talk. I do find it funny when people believe the GM for their narrative and not all the time. It is very early in the off season. I am not worried yet.
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
IAMBucFan....you sound the way I feel sometimes. Im sure there are many others that get frustrated. I will never quit watching the Pirates, mainly because I love baseball and they're my hometown team. But I will never understand why this FO was extended.
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
6E656D6164657E3B3D4A736B6265652469650A0 wrote: I find it hard to believe they are trying to lose. Sorry, I don't buy that.
The last five years or so I understood the plan and could predict the future some what. I am not saying I agreed with every plan, but I at least understood it. Right now, I don't know the direction. There are a lot of things that need answered. This is a big off season to determine the direction, in my opinion.
I don't always believe "GM speak". I want to see the moves, the action. Talk is just talk. I do find it funny when people believe the GM for their narrative and not all the time. It is very early in the off season. I am not worried yet.
Fine. Fair enough, I can buy that. Like you, I don't think they are TRYING to lose. But, I don't think they are TRYING to win, either, at least not actively. Here's what I mean. I don't think Bob Nutting wakes up in the morning hoping the team loses, like the crazy owner from Major League. Unlike her, he actually WANTS the team to win, of that I have no doubt.
However, and here is the key point, no sane observer can POSSIBLY believe the Pirates are fielding the best team possible. In other words, I truly believe that Bob Nutting's attitude is, "If we win, great! 2013-15 were a lot of fun. But, I'm not willing to do everything in my power to put the best team possible out there on the field for 162 games. I honestly don't see how a sane observer could say otherwise.
Like you, I don't know the direction. But, using some inductive reasoning (not deductive, mind you), I can induce from the past what they are trying to do. Consider these moves:
Burnet---->Niese
Morton---->Vogelsong
Walker/Alvarez---->Jaso
Kang---->Freese/Rodriguez
Marte---->Random utility infielder of the day
In every case, the Pirates have opted for the cheaper, path of least resistance, option. Every. Single. Time. Now, I don't have a problem going with the cheaper option IF THAT OPTION IS THE BETTER PLAYER. For instance, I'm perfectly comfortable with our rotation this year. I think our 1-5 stacks up nicely, and I think our 6-10 guys are pretty solid. I would not be in favor of the Pirates spending money on a starting pitcher in the mold of Ivan Nova this offseason. The upgrade such a hypothetical pitcher might offer over say, Trevor Williams, is negligible and not worth the investment.
HOWEVER, unless they are planning on never giving our three starting outfielders a day off, we're once again going to be using the infield flavor of the day to spot start in the outfield, and that's assuming no injuries, which both Marte and Polanco have shown great propensity in playing a full season thus far in their young careers.
The Pirates once again are planning on giving the bulk of their third base time to two journeymen infielders, both of whom are on the downsides of their careers. And, to top it off, they can't even really platoon them as both hit right handed!
If the Pirates ever, and I mean ever, had given me an example of this being GM speak, and instead actually going out and upgrading, then maybe, MAYBE, I could see your point. But, quite the contrary is true. They have, time, and time, and time again, demonstrated that this is not GM speak. Rather, this is, "Better prepare the fans for another year of mediocrity" speak.
Honestly...name for me the last player the Pirates acquired while he was in his prime, and productive, and I'm talking All-Star level player? Go ahead...I'll wait. No, Liriano, Burnett, and Martin don't count as every single one was coming off a down year, and had actually been trending down for quite some time. I give the Pirates credit for finding those guys. But, it's not like they went out and signed Max Scherzer, or Edwin Encarnacion, or traded for James Shields (you'll note the latter two are small-maker acquisitions).
At the end of the day, I'm just sick and tired of this team's utter refusal to operate like a major league baseball team. I'm sick and tired of their never ending excuses about why they can't compete, while justifying throwing money away at various journeymen over the years. The Pirates are robbing their fans blind, and we put up with it because of 2015, or because of Pierogi races, or because of Bucaroos ask the Bucs, or whatever other between inning gimmick they are doing that day.
Astros and Royals fans get parades. We get to watch Sal Sausage take a crown. Color me excited. Yay.
The last five years or so I understood the plan and could predict the future some what. I am not saying I agreed with every plan, but I at least understood it. Right now, I don't know the direction. There are a lot of things that need answered. This is a big off season to determine the direction, in my opinion.
I don't always believe "GM speak". I want to see the moves, the action. Talk is just talk. I do find it funny when people believe the GM for their narrative and not all the time. It is very early in the off season. I am not worried yet.
Fine. Fair enough, I can buy that. Like you, I don't think they are TRYING to lose. But, I don't think they are TRYING to win, either, at least not actively. Here's what I mean. I don't think Bob Nutting wakes up in the morning hoping the team loses, like the crazy owner from Major League. Unlike her, he actually WANTS the team to win, of that I have no doubt.
However, and here is the key point, no sane observer can POSSIBLY believe the Pirates are fielding the best team possible. In other words, I truly believe that Bob Nutting's attitude is, "If we win, great! 2013-15 were a lot of fun. But, I'm not willing to do everything in my power to put the best team possible out there on the field for 162 games. I honestly don't see how a sane observer could say otherwise.
Like you, I don't know the direction. But, using some inductive reasoning (not deductive, mind you), I can induce from the past what they are trying to do. Consider these moves:
Burnet---->Niese
Morton---->Vogelsong
Walker/Alvarez---->Jaso
Kang---->Freese/Rodriguez
Marte---->Random utility infielder of the day
In every case, the Pirates have opted for the cheaper, path of least resistance, option. Every. Single. Time. Now, I don't have a problem going with the cheaper option IF THAT OPTION IS THE BETTER PLAYER. For instance, I'm perfectly comfortable with our rotation this year. I think our 1-5 stacks up nicely, and I think our 6-10 guys are pretty solid. I would not be in favor of the Pirates spending money on a starting pitcher in the mold of Ivan Nova this offseason. The upgrade such a hypothetical pitcher might offer over say, Trevor Williams, is negligible and not worth the investment.
HOWEVER, unless they are planning on never giving our three starting outfielders a day off, we're once again going to be using the infield flavor of the day to spot start in the outfield, and that's assuming no injuries, which both Marte and Polanco have shown great propensity in playing a full season thus far in their young careers.
The Pirates once again are planning on giving the bulk of their third base time to two journeymen infielders, both of whom are on the downsides of their careers. And, to top it off, they can't even really platoon them as both hit right handed!
If the Pirates ever, and I mean ever, had given me an example of this being GM speak, and instead actually going out and upgrading, then maybe, MAYBE, I could see your point. But, quite the contrary is true. They have, time, and time, and time again, demonstrated that this is not GM speak. Rather, this is, "Better prepare the fans for another year of mediocrity" speak.
Honestly...name for me the last player the Pirates acquired while he was in his prime, and productive, and I'm talking All-Star level player? Go ahead...I'll wait. No, Liriano, Burnett, and Martin don't count as every single one was coming off a down year, and had actually been trending down for quite some time. I give the Pirates credit for finding those guys. But, it's not like they went out and signed Max Scherzer, or Edwin Encarnacion, or traded for James Shields (you'll note the latter two are small-maker acquisitions).
At the end of the day, I'm just sick and tired of this team's utter refusal to operate like a major league baseball team. I'm sick and tired of their never ending excuses about why they can't compete, while justifying throwing money away at various journeymen over the years. The Pirates are robbing their fans blind, and we put up with it because of 2015, or because of Pierogi races, or because of Bucaroos ask the Bucs, or whatever other between inning gimmick they are doing that day.
Astros and Royals fans get parades. We get to watch Sal Sausage take a crown. Color me excited. Yay.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
I understand your point, IABucFan. You are right, they never signed a big time free agent. I also don't think they needed to either over the years. They extended many young players and had a young team overall. Who were you going to replace? They paid Niese and Liriano in 2016 (that season is always brought up) and they failed. Not sure how many saw that coming.
This is the off season, I believe, that moves need to be made. I agree with you about the starting pitching. I think the biggest needs are 3B and the bullpen. I feel it is also time to make that trade, something they haven't done either, if they won't sign an upgrade.
You might not agree, but I felt Kang and Marte were huge blows. I really didn't expect a major pick up for Marte or a trade to replace him. No team is going to make a trade in April of that magnitude. They messed up Kang big time. I think they can make a run this year but they still have holes. I am waiting until they fill those holes before I get my hopes up or down for 2018.
This is the off season, I believe, that moves need to be made. I agree with you about the starting pitching. I think the biggest needs are 3B and the bullpen. I feel it is also time to make that trade, something they haven't done either, if they won't sign an upgrade.
You might not agree, but I felt Kang and Marte were huge blows. I really didn't expect a major pick up for Marte or a trade to replace him. No team is going to make a trade in April of that magnitude. They messed up Kang big time. I think they can make a run this year but they still have holes. I am waiting until they fill those holes before I get my hopes up or down for 2018.
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Bobster21
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
IABucFan, I agree 100%. They don't want to lose. They are just very limited in the effort they will make to win. And money is always at the heart of the matter. That's why Rodriguez at 3B in 2018 is no surprise. A team that gives prospects away to shed Liriano's contract and gives Nicasio away to save little more than minimum salary doesn't take on the remaining approximate 7.6 million of the 2-year deal the Braves gave Rodriguez just for a bench player. And they certainly don't do that if they also expect to take on another contract to find a new starting 3Bman. Of course, there's always the possibility that Harrison could get traded and Rodriguez could start at 2B, but he's going to start somewhere for that money. In that vein, I don't disagree with Dog about "GM speak." GMs don't like to announce their intentions for a number of reasons. They don't want the price to go up if they appear desperate. They don't want to look like a failure if they don't make the moves they talked about. And they don't want to alienate players currently on the roster who would perceive they are not looked upon as adequate.
I think Nutting's mandate to NH is to do the best he can and try to put together a competitive team with a payroll substantially below the MLB average. Easier said than done. The farm system isn't producing star players and productive veterans cost more than Nutting is willing to pay. I don't think any GM in his right mind thinks adding Jaso and Vogelsong is going to enhance a team's ability to compete with MLB's best. But I think that was a prime example of the financial constraints NH works under when he probably had to say, "Well, that's gonna have to do." Kind of like if I had to build a house and only had mud to work with. I wouldn't want the house to fall down. I would want it to be the best mud house I could build. But I would be very limited in the ability to build a house.
I think Nutting's mandate to NH is to do the best he can and try to put together a competitive team with a payroll substantially below the MLB average. Easier said than done. The farm system isn't producing star players and productive veterans cost more than Nutting is willing to pay. I don't think any GM in his right mind thinks adding Jaso and Vogelsong is going to enhance a team's ability to compete with MLB's best. But I think that was a prime example of the financial constraints NH works under when he probably had to say, "Well, that's gonna have to do." Kind of like if I had to build a house and only had mud to work with. I wouldn't want the house to fall down. I would want it to be the best mud house I could build. But I would be very limited in the ability to build a house.
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johnfluharty
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
0D0506312702252A440 wrote: Of course, I suppose we really shouldn't be surprised. We are talking about the same team that two years ago thought it would be smart to only have four starting pitchers on the roster (well, ok...3.5 starting pitchers).
Only the Pittsburgh Pirates would try to field a Major League Baseball team with no third baseman, no fourth outfielder, heck no third outfielder, and not a full starting rotation. But hey, at least they tried these ideas in different years...imagine what would happen if they tried them all together. :-/
hey, they signed Todd Cunningham. 4th outfielder problem solved!
Only the Pittsburgh Pirates would try to field a Major League Baseball team with no third baseman, no fourth outfielder, heck no third outfielder, and not a full starting rotation. But hey, at least they tried these ideas in different years...imagine what would happen if they tried them all together. :-/
hey, they signed Todd Cunningham. 4th outfielder problem solved!
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
5D5556617752757A140 wrote: BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
577170677161120 wrote: BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Who would be a good pickup to Play 3rd if Kang fails
7A7271465075525D330 wrote: BTW...Pirates are on the hook next year for $13 million among Kang, Freese, and Rodriguez.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.
You don't think the Pirates hope that Kang is back and is lying about it? This is one of my points. You don't like what you are hearing/reading, so you think it is a lie.
I think they want Kang back more than anything. He is a big part of the team and solves a hole.
Kang-$3 million
Freese-$4.25 million
Rodriguez-$5.75 million
$13 million
I just looked at MLB third basemen. By and large, it's a pretty lousy collection of talent. In fact, I might go so far as to say that 3B is the weakest position in MLB right now. Just one guy's opinion, I know. But, in that case, with a little bit of foresight, the Pirates could go with a young guy like Frazier at third base, or Osuna, or Harrison and put Frazier at second. Then, they could take that $13 million, follow me here, and USE IT TO UPGRADE ANOTHER POSITION, like, I don't know...catcher, or the outfield, or getting some bullpen help that can actually, oh, I don't know, GET A GUY OUT!!!
Sorry...I'm kind of ticked at the Pirates this morning. That article really set me off.
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
If Kang can't come to USA he doesn't get paid next year (just like in 2017). His salary and Marte's was the extra that wasn't spent until S-Rod was dealt for.
Yeah, but see, I don't buy that. Taking the team at face value, they have repeatedly said they hope Kang can play next year. So, unless that is a bold-faced lie, which it might be, they are hoping for a situation where Kang, Rodriguez, and Freese are all playing for the team, and thus all being paid. I don't buy that Kang's money was reallocated to Rodriguez, unless of course there really is no hope of him playing next year, in which case the team should just say that, cut ties, and be done with it.
You don't think the Pirates hope that Kang is back and is lying about it? This is one of my points. You don't like what you are hearing/reading, so you think it is a lie.
I think they want Kang back more than anything. He is a big part of the team and solves a hole.