Pirate moves on 10/30

[GreenWeenie]

634E43525544531310210 wrote: I know that all teams make waiver claims and that teams often lose players to waiver claims.



I am also not going to go on a long rant about losing Trapeano to the Mets and Waddell to the Twins.



That said, exactly how is the Never Man still on the 40 man roster if the Bucs are cutting loose pitchers that other teams deem warrant a 40 man roster spot, even if it is likely only temporary. 



I also recognize that the team soon (very soon) needs to make more cuts to add a bevy of players to the roster, so perhaps the Never Man has earned only a short reprieve.



I don't have a concern with the 7 cuts that were made, just don't understand why it wasn't at least 8.
It is mind boggling that a pitcher as consistently unsuccessful as Neverauskas seems to survive every roster reshuffling. His iron hold on the roster cannot be related to ability. So it must be something else.



Because they won't pay market price for established MLB players or international free agents, the Pirates have sought more unconventional means of finding talent. Forget Japan. Forget Cuba. The Pirates try to tap the markets where no other team is bidding (and for good reason).



They were the only team interested in the 2 pitchers from India. Neither made it. They were the first team to sign a player from South Africa. But Gift Ngoepe didn't make it. They were the first team to sign a position player from Korea. But Kang self-imploded and ultimately didn't make it. And they are the only team to sign a player from Lithuania. Neverauskas is all that is left of their efforts to tap into unconventional markets looking for MLB talent. Giving him his well deserved release might be an admission of defeat for this idea of finding a creative way to avoid bidding for the more sought after international players. (Altho they paid a transfer fee of 5 million to Korea for Kang, this was far below the 51 million the Rangers paid Japan for Yu Darvish since there was a question as to how the weak pitching in Korea might inflate Kang's hitting stats compared to MLB pitching.)



And failing in all of their efforts to find talent from unconventional sources could discourage other, more talented international players from opting to sign with the Pirates even if the cost was reasonable. Maybe some pitcher from Zanzibar or Madagascar or the Arctic wasteland will come along and sign with someone else knowing the Pirates failed to make successes of their Indian, South African, Korean or Lithuanian projects.   



Of course this is all just my theory. But the Pirates have a tendency to try to rationalize their refusal to spend by advocating "creative" alternatives such as analytics, shifting and looking for talent where no one else looks. Maybe they just don't want to cut Neverauskas and admit that their idea of looking for talent where no one else looks just doesn't work.   


If there is a Pulitzer Prize for Non-Fiction, this should win it.



How are you at politics?

[WildwoodDave]

7D485F5F546D5F5F54535F3A0 wrote: I know that all teams make waiver claims and that teams often lose players to waiver claims.



I am also not going to go on a long rant about losing Trapeano to the Mets and Waddell to the Twins.



That said, exactly how is the Never Man still on the 40 man roster if the Bucs are cutting loose pitchers that other teams deem warrant a 40 man roster spot, even if it is likely only temporary. 



I also recognize that the team soon (very soon) needs to make more cuts to add a bevy of players to the roster, so perhaps the Never Man has earned only a short reprieve.



I don't have a concern with the 7 cuts that were made, just don't understand why it wasn't at least 8.
It is mind boggling that a pitcher as consistently unsuccessful as Neverauskas seems to survive every roster reshuffling. His iron hold on the roster cannot be related to ability. So it must be something else.



Because they won't pay market price for established MLB players or international free agents, the Pirates have sought more unconventional means of finding talent. Forget Japan. Forget Cuba. The Pirates try to tap the markets where no other team is bidding (and for good reason).



They were the only team interested in the 2 pitchers from India. Neither made it. They were the first team to sign a player from South Africa. But Gift Ngoepe didn't make it. They were the first team to sign a position player from Korea. But Kang self-imploded and ultimately didn't make it. And they are the only team to sign a player from Lithuania. Neverauskas is all that is left of their efforts to tap into unconventional markets looking for MLB talent. Giving him his well deserved release might be an admission of defeat for this idea of finding a creative way to avoid bidding for the more sought after international players. (Altho they paid a transfer fee of 5 million to Korea for Kang, this was far below the 51 million the Rangers paid Japan for Yu Darvish since there was a question as to how the weak pitching in Korea might inflate Kang's hitting stats compared to MLB pitching.)



And failing in all of their efforts to find talent from unconventional sources could discourage other, more talented international players from opting to sign with the Pirates even if the cost was reasonable. Maybe some pitcher from Zanzibar or Madagascar or the Arctic wasteland will come along and sign with someone else knowing the Pirates failed to make successes of their Indian, South African, Korean or Lithuanian projects.   



Of course this is all just my theory. But the Pirates have a tendency to try to rationalize their refusal to spend by advocating "creative" alternatives such as analytics, shifting and looking for talent where no one else looks. Maybe they just don't want to cut Neverauskas and admit that their idea of looking for talent where no one else looks just doesn't work.   


If there is a Pulitzer Prize for Non-Fiction, this should win it.



How are you at politics? 




Maybe you should Shedman that same question

[GreenWeenie]

I know the answer.

[2drfischer@gmail.c]

193439282F3E29696A5B0 wrote: I know that all teams make waiver claims and that teams often lose players to waiver claims.



I am also not going to go on a long rant about losing Trapeano to the Mets and Waddell to the Twins.



That said, exactly how is the Never Man still on the 40 man roster if the Bucs are cutting loose pitchers that other teams deem warrant a 40 man roster spot, even if it is likely only temporary. 



I also recognize that the team soon (very soon) needs to make more cuts to add a bevy of players to the roster, so perhaps the Never Man has earned only a short reprieve.



I don't have a concern with the 7 cuts that were made, just don't understand why it wasn't at least 8.
It is mind boggling that a pitcher as consistently unsuccessful as Neverauskas seems to survive every roster reshuffling. His iron hold on the roster cannot be related to ability. So it must be something else.



Because they won't pay market price for established MLB players or international free agents, the Pirates have sought more unconventional means of finding talent. Forget Japan. Forget Cuba. The Pirates try to tap the markets where no other team is bidding (and for good reason).



They were the only team interested in the 2 pitchers from India. Neither made it. They were the first team to sign a player from South Africa. But Gift Ngoepe didn't make it. They were the first team to sign a position player from Korea. But Kang self-imploded and ultimately didn't make it. And they are the only team to sign a player from Lithuania. Neverauskas is all that is left of their efforts to tap into unconventional markets looking for MLB talent. Giving him his well deserved release might be an admission of defeat for this idea of finding a creative way to avoid bidding for the more sought after international players. (Altho they paid a transfer fee of 5 million to Korea for Kang, this was far below the 51 million the Rangers paid Japan for Yu Darvish since there was a question as to how the weak pitching in Korea might inflate Kang's hitting stats compared to MLB pitching.)



And failing in all of their efforts to find talent from unconventional sources could discourage other, more talented international players from opting to sign with the Pirates even if the cost was reasonable. Maybe some pitcher from Zanzibar or Madagascar or the Arctic wasteland will come along and sign with someone else knowing the Pirates failed to make successes of their Indian, South African, Korean or Lithuanian projects.   



Of course this is all just my theory. But the Pirates have a tendency to try to rationalize their refusal to spend by advocating "creative" alternatives such as analytics, shifting and looking for talent where no one else looks. Maybe they just don't want to cut Neverauskas and admit that their idea of looking for talent where no one else looks just doesn't work.   


What gives me hope, Bobster, is that the people who were in charge of all the things you described, the whole Pirates philosophy, are now gone. I know Nutting is still here, but he has nothing to do with player acquisition (except saying "no" to signing big time free agents) and player development.

[Bobster21]

1C4A5C48475D4D464B5C6E49434F4742004D2E0 wrote: I know that all teams make waiver claims and that teams often lose players to waiver claims.



I am also not going to go on a long rant about losing Trapeano to the Mets and Waddell to the Twins.



That said, exactly how is the Never Man still on the 40 man roster if the Bucs are cutting loose pitchers that other teams deem warrant a 40 man roster spot, even if it is likely only temporary. 



I also recognize that the team soon (very soon) needs to make more cuts to add a bevy of players to the roster, so perhaps the Never Man has earned only a short reprieve.



I don't have a concern with the 7 cuts that were made, just don't understand why it wasn't at least 8.
It is mind boggling that a pitcher as consistently unsuccessful as Neverauskas seems to survive every roster reshuffling. His iron hold on the roster cannot be related to ability. So it must be something else.



Because they won't pay market price for established MLB players or international free agents, the Pirates have sought more unconventional means of finding talent. Forget Japan. Forget Cuba. The Pirates try to tap the markets where no other team is bidding (and for good reason).



They were the only team interested in the 2 pitchers from India. Neither made it. They were the first team to sign a player from South Africa. But Gift Ngoepe didn't make it. They were the first team to sign a position player from Korea. But Kang self-imploded and ultimately didn't make it. And they are the only team to sign a player from Lithuania. Neverauskas is all that is left of their efforts to tap into unconventional markets looking for MLB talent. Giving him his well deserved release might be an admission of defeat for this idea of finding a creative way to avoid bidding for the more sought after international players. (Altho they paid a transfer fee of 5 million to Korea for Kang, this was far below the 51 million the Rangers paid Japan for Yu Darvish since there was a question as to how the weak pitching in Korea might inflate Kang's hitting stats compared to MLB pitching.)



And failing in all of their efforts to find talent from unconventional sources could discourage other, more talented international players from opting to sign with the Pirates even if the cost was reasonable. Maybe some pitcher from Zanzibar or Madagascar or the Arctic wasteland will come along and sign with someone else knowing the Pirates failed to make successes of their Indian, South African, Korean or Lithuanian projects.   



Of course this is all just my theory. But the Pirates have a tendency to try to rationalize their refusal to spend by advocating "creative" alternatives such as analytics, shifting and looking for talent where no one else looks. Maybe they just don't want to cut Neverauskas and admit that their idea of looking for talent where no one else looks just doesn't work.   


What gives me hope, Bobster, is that the people who were in charge of all the things you described, the whole Pirates philosophy, are now gone.  I know Nutting is still here, but he has nothing to do with player acquisition (except saying "no" to signing big time free agents) and player development.


We can only hope, Doc. BC & Co don't need to defend the actions of the people before them who were fired. But BC is under the same severe financial constraints as NH. So he may not want to totally abandon that strategy. And if he is going to abandon that strategy, then why on earth has Neverauskas not been cut?

[GreenWeenie]

Huntington wasn't an idiot. The biggest knock I know of him was his lack of experience (compared with Cherington) when he was hired.



Cherington's no genius. He'll make his share of good moves, I would think. And, he'll make some mistakes. I would question anyone who thinks otherwise. The bottom line is- he's at .317. Better get going.



BOB has more influence than some appear to think. While he doesn't get involved with most player personnel decisions, BOB has a serious influence on the caliber of people who consider coming to the Pirates to work. I doubt that many consider the Pirates their employer of preference. And, he probably approves the meager payroll that has its influences, of course.

[2drfischer@gmail.c]

153835242332256566570 wrote: I know that all teams make waiver claims and that teams often lose players to waiver claims.



I am also not going to go on a long rant about losing Trapeano to the Mets and Waddell to the Twins.



That said, exactly how is the Never Man still on the 40 man roster if the Bucs are cutting loose pitchers that other teams deem warrant a 40 man roster spot, even if it is likely only temporary. 



I also recognize that the team soon (very soon) needs to make more cuts to add a bevy of players to the roster, so perhaps the Never Man has earned only a short reprieve.



I don't have a concern with the 7 cuts that were made, just don't understand why it wasn't at least 8.
It is mind boggling that a pitcher as consistently unsuccessful as Neverauskas seems to survive every roster reshuffling. His iron hold on the roster cannot be related to ability. So it must be something else.



Because they won't pay market price for established MLB players or international free agents, the Pirates have sought more unconventional means of finding talent. Forget Japan. Forget Cuba. The Pirates try to tap the markets where no other team is bidding (and for good reason).



They were the only team interested in the 2 pitchers from India. Neither made it. They were the first team to sign a player from South Africa. But Gift Ngoepe didn't make it. They were the first team to sign a position player from Korea. But Kang self-imploded and ultimately didn't make it. And they are the only team to sign a player from Lithuania. Neverauskas is all that is left of their efforts to tap into unconventional markets looking for MLB talent. Giving him his well deserved release might be an admission of defeat for this idea of finding a creative way to avoid bidding for the more sought after international players. (Altho they paid a transfer fee of 5 million to Korea for Kang, this was far below the 51 million the Rangers paid Japan for Yu Darvish since there was a question as to how the weak pitching in Korea might inflate Kang's hitting stats compared to MLB pitching.)



And failing in all of their efforts to find talent from unconventional sources could discourage other, more talented international players from opting to sign with the Pirates even if the cost was reasonable. Maybe some pitcher from Zanzibar or Madagascar or the Arctic wasteland will come along and sign with someone else knowing the Pirates failed to make successes of their Indian, South African, Korean or Lithuanian projects.   



Of course this is all just my theory. But the Pirates have a tendency to try to rationalize their refusal to spend by advocating "creative" alternatives such as analytics, shifting and looking for talent where no one else looks. Maybe they just don't want to cut Neverauskas and admit that their idea of looking for talent where no one else looks just doesn't work.   


What gives me hope, Bobster, is that the people who were in charge of all the things you described, the whole Pirates philosophy, are now gone.  I know Nutting is still here, but he has nothing to do with player acquisition (except saying "no" to signing big time free agents) and player development.


We can only hope, Doc. BC & Co don't need to defend the actions of the people before them who were fired. But BC is under the same severe financial constraints as NH. So he may not want to totally abandon that strategy. And if he is going to abandon that strategy, then why on earth has Neverauskas not been cut?




I agree BC is still under the same restraints but I'm banking on him being able to better identify amateur talent and having the right people in place to develop it.  Tampa and Oakland work under similar constraints and have success on the field.  There's no reason that success can't happen here in spite of Nutting.  Realistically, that's all we have as Pirates fans because of Nutting.



I've read some good things about what Cherington has done with regard to rebuilding and redesigning the organization.  The last thing that will show from that effort is the what happens on the field in Pittsburgh.  That's why it's said that a rebuild takes 3-4 years to show results in the standings.  As fans, we can't change that so I'm not going to whine about what BC hasn't done to improve this past season's roster.  People who do are simply naive.  As for Neverauskas still being around, I can't answer that.

[Bobster21]

6D584F4F447D4F4F44434F2A0 wrote: Huntington wasn't an idiot.  The biggest knock I know of him was his lack of experience (compared with Cherington) when he was hired.



Cherington's no genius.  He'll make his share of good moves, I would think.  And, he'll make some mistakes.  I would question anyone who thinks otherwise.  The bottom line is- he's at .317.  Better get going.



BOB has more influence than some appear to think.  While he doesn't get involved with most player personnel decisions, BOB has a serious influence on the caliber of people who consider coming to the Pirates to work.  I doubt that many consider the Pirates their employer of preference.  And, he probably approves the meager payroll that has its influences, of course.
I don't think there's any doubt that Nutting wields the most influence. He doesn't tell his GM which players to acquire. But he sets the parameters under which his GM must operate.



Just for the sake of argument, let's say the Astros had offered George Springer for Cole. But Springer's contract called for 12 million that year. There's no way NH could have accepted such an offer. NH accepted 4 players whose combined salaries at that time were under 2 million. It's like Nutting giving someone $5 and telling them to go get the best dinner you can get with that. So a Pirate GM probably has to turn down the best deals he is offered and ask for something less. Something in his boss's price range. This is why the Pirates usually trade for minor league prospects. The money is to their liking but the risk is that those prospects might never become productive major leaguers.



And that was NH's failure. It wasn't his fault he had to settle for prospects instead of more expensive productive, proven MLB talent. But NH didn't seem apt at getting many prospects who would become assets. For Cutch and Cole he got a talent in Reynolds, modest production from Musgrove and Moran, a walk machine in Crick, an ineffective Feliz, and a recently outrighted Jason Martin. Part of that is that teams don't want to give up their top prospects. In many cases, they would probably prefer to give up a proven, productive major leaguer than part with their better prospects. But when your owner refuses to increase payroll too accommodate the salary of proven, productive major leaguers, the GM is left to take the best of whatever prospects another team is willing to part with. I doubt the Astros even blinked at the idea of losing Musgrove, Moran, Feliz and Martin if it brought them Cole.



BC has the same predicament as NH. He's just going to have to be better at assessing other teams' prospects when he makes trades. But he's still in the same position of not being able to accept better trades because of the money involved and having to settle for a lesser return on his players because of the financial constraints under which he works. 

[GreenWeenie]

I agree with you on the general way of things having being done.



There is no way on earth that I would offer much to the Pirates if I know that all they want to do is shed salary.



The last thing on earth that BOB wanted to do is to write another paycheck to Cutch or to Cole.



Offer as little as possible until the Pirates finally agree to put the guy in a box have the UPS guy come to pick him up. So, we don't get blue chip suspects, either.



Bad development? If BOB won't pay for players, I don't expect him to pay very much for coaches and behind-the-scenes guys, either.