7F786E66687F38344D6A606C6461236E62600D0 wrote:
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
I wanted to come back to this post because of a very important point: I think Babe nails a point that will be reality within just a year or two: this team in 2019 and certainly 2020 could have the bottom fall out. Another example of a failed plan ultimately: the FO would not move prospects to help the current team, but there is little to think the farm system is going to replace the core of the 2013-15 teams. With the current approach it could well be years before the Pirates are truly contenders.
I think the Pirates record of the past couple years shows how hard it is to estimate contributions by young players and to try and time players having good years together.
In 2015 it was not unreasonable to expect the Pirates to have great starting pitching in 2017: Cole, Liriano, Taillon, Glasnow. Possibly the top rotation in baseball. Along with Cutch, Marte, Polanco and Bell providing great offense.
It didn't happen. As fans, we should not be faulted for anticipating a great future. Baseball professionals such as NH need to be more objective (and I'm sure they are to a great degree). But the Bucs had no back up plan or contingency to make adjustments if things didn't pan out in the best case scenario.
If management wants to wait until the best case scenario unfolds it is going to wait for ever. Eventually fans get weary of waiting for the next year.
The point about drafting and developing can't be overstated imo. That shows the process isn't working. I've posted in a couple of threads about the Pirates lack of power. That could put the team behind the eight ball for years. I don't think there is anyway that the Bucs have enough of a surplus of pitching to deal for much power.
Signing Moustakas or Todd Frazier would help.
REALITY
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
REALITY
Seems like everyone agrees NH did a good job of turning the franchise around after decades of losing. But as I've often said, that was only half the job. I can't think of any team that went from years of losing to suddenly being the best. A rebuilding effort involves trading veterans for prospects and combining them with drafted prospects. If it's done right (as NH did), the losing can be stopped. Then the second half of the job requires that the roster be tweaked to add a few quality veterans to fill whatever holes remain and to elevate the team from one capable of winning more than it loses to a team ready to contend for a championship.
That's where the plan hits a snag. The 2013 team had strong pitching (both starting and relief) but tried to get by at SS with Barmes and at traditionally strong offensive positions of 1B and RF with a weak Sanchez/Jones combo at 1B and Snider/Tabata/Jones in RF until Byrd was finally acquired for the September run. The 2014 team again had strong pitching but tried to get by with Ike Davis at 1B and a combo of struggling rookie Polanco and journeyman Snider in RF. The 2015 team was stronger offensively but when Locke and Morton both struggled throughout the season, the Bucs just tried to weather the storm. As Dog would point out, the Pirates have shown the ability to put together a good, competitive team. But what they haven't shown is the willingness to fill the remaining holes with quality players to take them to the next level. So when we talk about the future of the team, even if they rebuild it into a competitive team again, will they always be willing to try to compete with a few glaring weaknesses instead of adequately filling those holes?
That's where the plan hits a snag. The 2013 team had strong pitching (both starting and relief) but tried to get by at SS with Barmes and at traditionally strong offensive positions of 1B and RF with a weak Sanchez/Jones combo at 1B and Snider/Tabata/Jones in RF until Byrd was finally acquired for the September run. The 2014 team again had strong pitching but tried to get by with Ike Davis at 1B and a combo of struggling rookie Polanco and journeyman Snider in RF. The 2015 team was stronger offensively but when Locke and Morton both struggled throughout the season, the Bucs just tried to weather the storm. As Dog would point out, the Pirates have shown the ability to put together a good, competitive team. But what they haven't shown is the willingness to fill the remaining holes with quality players to take them to the next level. So when we talk about the future of the team, even if they rebuild it into a competitive team again, will they always be willing to try to compete with a few glaring weaknesses instead of adequately filling those holes?
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rucker59@gmail.com
REALITY
775150475141320 wrote:
The point about drafting and developing can't be overstated imo. That shows the process isn't working. I've posted in a couple of threads about the Pirates lack of power. That could put the team behind the eight ball for years. I don't think there is anyway that the Bucs have enough of a surplus of pitching to deal for much power.
Signing Moustakas or Todd Frazier would help.
This is a huge point - all the pitching we initially drafted, to both staff the team but also trade for positions of need - so little of the pitching worked out. I don't know if it's a reflection on poor drafting or an unreasonable reliance upon the draft in any case, but this part of the long term plan failed badly. And Neal is showing even less ability in drafting position players.
Signing Moustakas would be a big step forward for this organization.
The point about drafting and developing can't be overstated imo. That shows the process isn't working. I've posted in a couple of threads about the Pirates lack of power. That could put the team behind the eight ball for years. I don't think there is anyway that the Bucs have enough of a surplus of pitching to deal for much power.
Signing Moustakas or Todd Frazier would help.
This is a huge point - all the pitching we initially drafted, to both staff the team but also trade for positions of need - so little of the pitching worked out. I don't know if it's a reflection on poor drafting or an unreasonable reliance upon the draft in any case, but this part of the long term plan failed badly. And Neal is showing even less ability in drafting position players.
Signing Moustakas would be a big step forward for this organization.
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rucker59@gmail.com
REALITY
466B66777061763635040 wrote: Seems like everyone agrees NH did a good job of turning the franchise around after decades of losing. But as I've often said, that was only half the job. I can't think of any team that went from years of losing to suddenly being the best. A rebuilding effort involves trading veterans for prospects and combining them with drafted prospects. If it's done right (as NH did), the losing can be stopped. Then the second half of the job requires that the roster be tweaked to add a few quality veterans to fill whatever holes remain and to elevate the team from one capable of winning more than it loses to a team ready to contend for a championship.
That's where the plan hits a snag. The 2013 team had strong pitching (both starting and relief) but tried to get by at SS with Barmes and at traditionally strong offensive positions of 1B and RF with a weak Sanchez/Jones combo at 1B and Snider/Tabata/Jones in RF until Byrd was finally acquired for the September run. The 2014 team again had strong pitching but tried to get by with Ike Davis at 1B and a combo of struggling rookie Polanco and journeyman Snider in RF. The 2015 team was stronger offensively but when Locke and Morton both struggled throughout the season, the Bucs just tried to weather the storm. As Dog would point out, the Pirates have shown the ability to put together a good, competitive team. But what they haven't shown is the willingness to fill the remaining holes with quality players to take them to the next level. So when we talk about the future of the team, even if they rebuild it into a competitive team again, will they always be willing to try to compete with a few glaring weaknesses instead of adequately filling those holes?
The failure of the back half of the plan was in plain sight in the 2015-16 off season. Just awful. Not just bad execution, terrible terrible planning.
Now things are worse - I see no plan. I expect by next year it will be Dave Littlefield 2.0 unless they find their way this offseason. If we drift into 2019 and beyond, it will get really ugly.
That's where the plan hits a snag. The 2013 team had strong pitching (both starting and relief) but tried to get by at SS with Barmes and at traditionally strong offensive positions of 1B and RF with a weak Sanchez/Jones combo at 1B and Snider/Tabata/Jones in RF until Byrd was finally acquired for the September run. The 2014 team again had strong pitching but tried to get by with Ike Davis at 1B and a combo of struggling rookie Polanco and journeyman Snider in RF. The 2015 team was stronger offensively but when Locke and Morton both struggled throughout the season, the Bucs just tried to weather the storm. As Dog would point out, the Pirates have shown the ability to put together a good, competitive team. But what they haven't shown is the willingness to fill the remaining holes with quality players to take them to the next level. So when we talk about the future of the team, even if they rebuild it into a competitive team again, will they always be willing to try to compete with a few glaring weaknesses instead of adequately filling those holes?
The failure of the back half of the plan was in plain sight in the 2015-16 off season. Just awful. Not just bad execution, terrible terrible planning.
Now things are worse - I see no plan. I expect by next year it will be Dave Littlefield 2.0 unless they find their way this offseason. If we drift into 2019 and beyond, it will get really ugly.
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johnfluharty
REALITY
In the beginning was the plan
and the plan was void, without form
and darkness was upon the face of the players
and they spoke among themselves, saying
"the plan is a crap; it stinks"
and the players went to their coaches and said
"the plan is a crock of dung and we cannot stand the smell"
and the coaches went unto the managers and said to them,
"the plan is a container of excrement and very strong, such that none may abide by its odor",
and the managers went unto their directors and said,
"the plan is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength",
and the directors spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another,
"the plan contains that which aids growth and it is very strong",
and the directors went to the vice presidents and said to them,
"the plan promotes growth and is very powerful",
and the vice presidents went unto the president and said to him,
"the plan will actively promote growth and efficiency",
and the president looked upon the plan,
and he saw that it was good,
and he made the plan policy.
and the plan was void, without form
and darkness was upon the face of the players
and they spoke among themselves, saying
"the plan is a crap; it stinks"
and the players went to their coaches and said
"the plan is a crock of dung and we cannot stand the smell"
and the coaches went unto the managers and said to them,
"the plan is a container of excrement and very strong, such that none may abide by its odor",
and the managers went unto their directors and said,
"the plan is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength",
and the directors spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another,
"the plan contains that which aids growth and it is very strong",
and the directors went to the vice presidents and said to them,
"the plan promotes growth and is very powerful",
and the vice presidents went unto the president and said to him,
"the plan will actively promote growth and efficiency",
and the president looked upon the plan,
and he saw that it was good,
and he made the plan policy.
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DemDog
REALITY
575255535B5148555C4F49443D0 wrote: In the beginning was the plan
and the plan was void, without form
and darkness was upon the face of the players
and they spoke among themselves, saying
"the plan is a crap; it stinks"
and the players went to their coaches and said
"the plan is a crock of dung and we cannot stand the smell"
and the coaches went unto the managers and said to them,
"the plan is a container of excrement and very strong, such that none may abide by its odor",
and the managers went unto their directors and said,
"the plan is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength",
and the directors spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another,
"the plan contains that which aids growth and it is very strong",
and the directors went to the vice presidents and said to them,
"the plan promotes growth and is very powerful",
and the vice presidents went unto the president and said to him,
"the plan will actively promote growth and efficiency",
and the president looked upon the plan,
and he saw that it was good,
and he made the plan policy.
Only a guy from WV could come up with a post like this. I am rocking with laughter as I type. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. But then to alibi the upper management any good farmer will tell you that "manure" makes great fertilizer for most crops. Despite the farmer references in all of baseball, farm teams, etc. "manure" is not a good fertilizer for MLB teams.
So I suggest that Scrooge McNutting just sell the team to some non-farmer kid of guy and use the proceeds to go out and buy a huge farm and spend his money on some "manure" to fertilize his new farm.
Thanks much for the great humor. We longtime fans need some after 2017.
and the plan was void, without form
and darkness was upon the face of the players
and they spoke among themselves, saying
"the plan is a crap; it stinks"
and the players went to their coaches and said
"the plan is a crock of dung and we cannot stand the smell"
and the coaches went unto the managers and said to them,
"the plan is a container of excrement and very strong, such that none may abide by its odor",
and the managers went unto their directors and said,
"the plan is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength",
and the directors spoke amongst themselves, saying one to another,
"the plan contains that which aids growth and it is very strong",
and the directors went to the vice presidents and said to them,
"the plan promotes growth and is very powerful",
and the vice presidents went unto the president and said to him,
"the plan will actively promote growth and efficiency",
and the president looked upon the plan,
and he saw that it was good,
and he made the plan policy.
Only a guy from WV could come up with a post like this. I am rocking with laughter as I type. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. But then to alibi the upper management any good farmer will tell you that "manure" makes great fertilizer for most crops. Despite the farmer references in all of baseball, farm teams, etc. "manure" is not a good fertilizer for MLB teams.
So I suggest that Scrooge McNutting just sell the team to some non-farmer kid of guy and use the proceeds to go out and buy a huge farm and spend his money on some "manure" to fertilize his new farm.
Thanks much for the great humor. We longtime fans need some after 2017.