7B5A527B50583F0 wrote: Sorry Possum.
So, you think it is accurate to make predictions for the 2018 season the day after the 2017 World Series?
Who did Jayson Werth sign with? Did the Cubs extend Lackey and Arrieta? Did Sabathia retire or is he coming back? Did the Royals sign Hosmer, Cain and Moustakas? Where did Todd Frazier go? Was McCutchen's option picked up?
I have learned over the years that most moves don't happen the day after the World Series. I am willing to bet more moves will be coming than just the Upton extension. But I do apologize for being too vague and incorrect.
Why yes I do Dog. In fact I predict that the Buccos will win the WS in 4 over the vaunted Detroit Tigers.
In fact newly acquired Bucco RF Giancarlo Stanton will win the triple crown and be named NL MVP as well as win a Gold Glove. Bucs will sign their previous playoff nemesis Jake Arrieta and Madison Baumgartener who will battle all season long for the NL Cy Young award with each winning 20 games
These will be the hightlights of the Buccos incredible season in which Nutting will say to heck with the payroll restrictions I want to win the whole shebang now and in the near future. So he will let out all stops with the money.
Hows that for predicting the 2018 season just 2 days after the World Series. I needed the extra day to make sure I go things correctly.
Possum, you forgot to add that Kang will hit 30 HRs and Cervelli will set a record for catching all 162 games.
Thanks Bobster I did forget those two guys. Actually I think Kang will hit 40 or so Ks and have a 1.000 Fielding % at the hot corner. As for Cervelli I think he will make it into 164 games, he will find a couple extra games somewhere. Maybe in some sandlot game on an off day.
You make perfect sense, Possum. But I suspect Cervelli's extra games won't be sandlot. Like Leslie Nielson in Naked Gun, Cervelli will wait for a Pirates' off day, fly to another city, knock out that team's catcher and impersonate him to get the extra games.
REALITY
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
DemDog
REALITY
1F323F2E29382F6F6C5D0 wrote: Sorry Possum.
So, you think it is accurate to make predictions for the 2018 season the day after the 2017 World Series?
Who did Jayson Werth sign with? Did the Cubs extend Lackey and Arrieta? Did Sabathia retire or is he coming back? Did the Royals sign Hosmer, Cain and Moustakas? Where did Todd Frazier go? Was McCutchen's option picked up?
I have learned over the years that most moves don't happen the day after the World Series. I am willing to bet more moves will be coming than just the Upton extension. But I do apologize for being too vague and incorrect.
Why yes I do Dog. In fact I predict that the Buccos will win the WS in 4 over the vaunted Detroit Tigers.
In fact newly acquired Bucco RF Giancarlo Stanton will win the triple crown and be named NL MVP as well as win a Gold Glove. Bucs will sign their previous playoff nemesis Jake Arrieta and Madison Baumgartener who will battle all season long for the NL Cy Young award with each winning 20 games
These will be the hightlights of the Buccos incredible season in which Nutting will say to heck with the payroll restrictions I want to win the whole shebang now and in the near future. So he will let out all stops with the money.
Hows that for predicting the 2018 season just 2 days after the World Series. I needed the extra day to make sure I go things correctly.
Possum, you forgot to add that Kang will hit 30 HRs and Cervelli will set a record for catching all 162 games.
Thanks Bobster I did forget those two guys. Actually I think Kang will hit 40 or so Ks and have a 1.000 Fielding % at the hot corner. As for Cervelli I think he will make it into 164 games, he will find a couple extra games somewhere. Maybe in some sandlot game on an off day.
You make perfect sense, Possum. But I suspect Cervelli's extra games won't be sandlot. Like Leslie Nielson in Naked Gun, Cervelli will wait for a Pirates' off day, fly to another city, knock out that team's catcher and impersonate him to get the extra games.
That is great thought Bobster. Need to get Cervelli those extra games some how. By the way we would make a great team of prognosticators. You know Possum & Bobster Show sponsored by OBN! ;D
So, you think it is accurate to make predictions for the 2018 season the day after the 2017 World Series?
Who did Jayson Werth sign with? Did the Cubs extend Lackey and Arrieta? Did Sabathia retire or is he coming back? Did the Royals sign Hosmer, Cain and Moustakas? Where did Todd Frazier go? Was McCutchen's option picked up?
I have learned over the years that most moves don't happen the day after the World Series. I am willing to bet more moves will be coming than just the Upton extension. But I do apologize for being too vague and incorrect.
Why yes I do Dog. In fact I predict that the Buccos will win the WS in 4 over the vaunted Detroit Tigers.
In fact newly acquired Bucco RF Giancarlo Stanton will win the triple crown and be named NL MVP as well as win a Gold Glove. Bucs will sign their previous playoff nemesis Jake Arrieta and Madison Baumgartener who will battle all season long for the NL Cy Young award with each winning 20 games
These will be the hightlights of the Buccos incredible season in which Nutting will say to heck with the payroll restrictions I want to win the whole shebang now and in the near future. So he will let out all stops with the money.
Hows that for predicting the 2018 season just 2 days after the World Series. I needed the extra day to make sure I go things correctly.
Possum, you forgot to add that Kang will hit 30 HRs and Cervelli will set a record for catching all 162 games.
Thanks Bobster I did forget those two guys. Actually I think Kang will hit 40 or so Ks and have a 1.000 Fielding % at the hot corner. As for Cervelli I think he will make it into 164 games, he will find a couple extra games somewhere. Maybe in some sandlot game on an off day.
You make perfect sense, Possum. But I suspect Cervelli's extra games won't be sandlot. Like Leslie Nielson in Naked Gun, Cervelli will wait for a Pirates' off day, fly to another city, knock out that team's catcher and impersonate him to get the extra games.
That is great thought Bobster. Need to get Cervelli those extra games some how. By the way we would make a great team of prognosticators. You know Possum & Bobster Show sponsored by OBN! ;D
-
rucker59@gmail.com
REALITY
1E3A2E26234F0 wrote: It's nice to be able to come back to this thread periodically and get a good dose of "REALITY". I just can't get this kind of reality anywhere else! 
Carolina Bucco started a good thread, and I think 100% correct: this WS highlighted the reality that we're light years behind the top teams. Good conversation followed, debating Carolina's point. Most people debate whether a blow up is required on some more tinkering can get the Buccos over the hump. Then the conversation gets directed back to 2015 and how the Pirates are just like the Astros. I thinking "no way this is happening, that the 2018 Pirates are once again hitching a ride on 2015", but sure enough the last couple pages are about the 2015 Pirates and how $$$ has nothing to do with a championship team.... reality was right within our grasp....
A couple comments:
1) I propose that if we go back more than one season we automatically go back to 1979 where we won the WS. No more celebrating 98 meaningless wins. "The Pirates won the WS in 1979, why can't they win in 2018?"
2) the 2015 Pirates can be used, much like the Astros, to show just how far behind the best of the division/league these Pirates are: the 2015 and 2017 Pirates bear virtually nothing in common. The 2015 Pirates was a VERY good team. The 2017 Pirates bear no resemblance to either 2015 or the Astros.
3) contrary to some revisionist history in this thread, the "complaining" didn't begin in 2015, it began in the off season between 2015 and 16 seasons. History has proven that ALL complains, disappointments and allegations (broken promises, etc) were literally 100% correct. 2016 represented the results when ownership tries to win on the cheap - the entire identity, and certainly the entire success, that was being built up and culminated in 2015 was gone. The Pirates FO (to include the ownership as first responsibility) destroyed the 2015 Pirates.
4) the FO did not understand the complex but essential chemistry of the club house, the value of authentic leadership, the essential requirement that All Star results (even if provided by someone having a career year) must be replaced by All Star results. Mess with any one of these and the team is changed. Disregard all three and the following team has NOTHING in common with the previous team. 2016 is the issue, not 2015, and 2016 was not the same team. Many of us saw it in the off season between2015 and 2016.
5) to pretend $$$ has little to do with results is so silly as to boarder on the absurd. Of course it is an essential component of building a team and the 2016 Pirates represents the proof - the FO began a campaign of lies, misdirection, and more lies to justify failure to follow through with promised payroll "when the time is right". "Insufficient support" was suddenly the response given by the FO to any question about payroll.
6) quick fact - between 2010 and 2016 the Pirates drew about 1.2M more fans than the Astros. Way more than that compared to KC and Cleveland. The Pirates payroll is a scam.
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
7) to finish my little jog through reality, I return to Carolina's OP - this WS shows that the Pirates are light years behind the best teams in MLB. But OTOH, the '79 Pirates won the WS, there is no reason the 2018 Pirates can't win one as well!
Carolina Bucco started a good thread, and I think 100% correct: this WS highlighted the reality that we're light years behind the top teams. Good conversation followed, debating Carolina's point. Most people debate whether a blow up is required on some more tinkering can get the Buccos over the hump. Then the conversation gets directed back to 2015 and how the Pirates are just like the Astros. I thinking "no way this is happening, that the 2018 Pirates are once again hitching a ride on 2015", but sure enough the last couple pages are about the 2015 Pirates and how $$$ has nothing to do with a championship team.... reality was right within our grasp....
A couple comments:
1) I propose that if we go back more than one season we automatically go back to 1979 where we won the WS. No more celebrating 98 meaningless wins. "The Pirates won the WS in 1979, why can't they win in 2018?"
2) the 2015 Pirates can be used, much like the Astros, to show just how far behind the best of the division/league these Pirates are: the 2015 and 2017 Pirates bear virtually nothing in common. The 2015 Pirates was a VERY good team. The 2017 Pirates bear no resemblance to either 2015 or the Astros.
3) contrary to some revisionist history in this thread, the "complaining" didn't begin in 2015, it began in the off season between 2015 and 16 seasons. History has proven that ALL complains, disappointments and allegations (broken promises, etc) were literally 100% correct. 2016 represented the results when ownership tries to win on the cheap - the entire identity, and certainly the entire success, that was being built up and culminated in 2015 was gone. The Pirates FO (to include the ownership as first responsibility) destroyed the 2015 Pirates.
4) the FO did not understand the complex but essential chemistry of the club house, the value of authentic leadership, the essential requirement that All Star results (even if provided by someone having a career year) must be replaced by All Star results. Mess with any one of these and the team is changed. Disregard all three and the following team has NOTHING in common with the previous team. 2016 is the issue, not 2015, and 2016 was not the same team. Many of us saw it in the off season between2015 and 2016.
5) to pretend $$$ has little to do with results is so silly as to boarder on the absurd. Of course it is an essential component of building a team and the 2016 Pirates represents the proof - the FO began a campaign of lies, misdirection, and more lies to justify failure to follow through with promised payroll "when the time is right". "Insufficient support" was suddenly the response given by the FO to any question about payroll.
6) quick fact - between 2010 and 2016 the Pirates drew about 1.2M more fans than the Astros. Way more than that compared to KC and Cleveland. The Pirates payroll is a scam.
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
7) to finish my little jog through reality, I return to Carolina's OP - this WS shows that the Pirates are light years behind the best teams in MLB. But OTOH, the '79 Pirates won the WS, there is no reason the 2018 Pirates can't win one as well!
-
Bobster21
REALITY
Imagine how awesome a farm system would have to be to develop prospects at almost every position to create a roster capable of successfully competing against the best teams in MLB with so few remaining needs that they could be adequately filled with relatively inexpensive reclamation projects and 2nd or 3rd tier free agents. That seems to be the Pirates' plan. All they need now is the awesome farm system. ::)
-
ArnoldRothstein
REALITY
3235232B2532757900272D21292C6E232F2D400 wrote:
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
REALITY
715C51404756410102330 wrote: Imagine how awesome a farm system would have to be to develop prospects at almost every position to create a roster capable of successfully competing against the best teams in MLB with so few remaining needs that they could be adequately filled with relatively inexpensive reclamation projects and 2nd or 3rd tier free agents. That seems to be the Pirates' plan. All they need now is the awesome farm system. ::)
We won the WS in '79....
We won the WS in '79....
-
rucker59@gmail.com
REALITY
4A796564676F59647F63787F6E62650B0 wrote:
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
You're right. Mediocre would be a more accurate description. The Astros drafting and development is so outstanding it made the Pirates look sort of puny in comparison.
I can live with a rebuild or with "one more run" with this team, what I can't live with is doing basically nothing, again. Nutting is the key - will he give Neal an extra $25M? If that's not happening then I think they need to blow up.
One point to consider - Neal BUILT a very good team, from scratch almost. He has not been able to build upon a good team. My guess is that the smaller payroll of the rebuild nevertheless gave him more money to actually build with. I think Neal may well be able to Rebuild better (much better?) than trying to maintain with a payroll that's effectually shrunk.
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
You're right. Mediocre would be a more accurate description. The Astros drafting and development is so outstanding it made the Pirates look sort of puny in comparison.
I can live with a rebuild or with "one more run" with this team, what I can't live with is doing basically nothing, again. Nutting is the key - will he give Neal an extra $25M? If that's not happening then I think they need to blow up.
One point to consider - Neal BUILT a very good team, from scratch almost. He has not been able to build upon a good team. My guess is that the smaller payroll of the rebuild nevertheless gave him more money to actually build with. I think Neal may well be able to Rebuild better (much better?) than trying to maintain with a payroll that's effectually shrunk.
REALITY
53607C7D7E76407D667A6166777B7C120 wrote:
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
You may be 100% right about this. The Pirates have little power in the minors and the teams in this year's playoffs were monsters at hitting home runs. With Cutch and Bell the Pirates have a couple guys who can come close to 30 homers. We need a couple other guys to get up into that range too. Hard to do with Cervelli, Mercer, Marte, and Harrison as regulars. Polanco and who is ever at third base need to hit with power.
In the playoffs the broadcasters talked about launch angle and home run power and it looks like the Pirates have fallen behind in this. Don't know if it can be addressed with current players and coaches or not.
7) here's one I don't understand - if drafting and player development, and not money, are the essential elements in building a championship team, and money has little or no role, why would ANYONE support this FO? Our drafting and player development is atrocious. Literally, if we're expecting our farm system and development to be the signature of this team going forward then I think there's a good chance we're in year 2 of another 20 year losing streak. I have no idea how focusing solely on draft and development helps this FO.
I'd say mediocre rather than atrocious, but to be successful they have to be exemplary at this stuff. It's basically why I think the best strategy right now is to hold their cards and just hope everyone has a good year. I think the current group has a better chance of being good next year than the kids on the team and in the system have of being good in 2020.
You may be 100% right about this. The Pirates have little power in the minors and the teams in this year's playoffs were monsters at hitting home runs. With Cutch and Bell the Pirates have a couple guys who can come close to 30 homers. We need a couple other guys to get up into that range too. Hard to do with Cervelli, Mercer, Marte, and Harrison as regulars. Polanco and who is ever at third base need to hit with power.
In the playoffs the broadcasters talked about launch angle and home run power and it looks like the Pirates have fallen behind in this. Don't know if it can be addressed with current players and coaches or not.