765051465040330 wrote: I just think they were too quick to give up. He was good for us for several seasons and bad a few a few months and we pulled the cord. I'm not sure about the strategy of dealing with pitching depth issues by unloading pitchers.
I felt the same way. He seems like exactly the sort of guy the Pirates would be targeting this offseason. That said, I really do think that he must of been doing something off the field that they found detrimental. There are rumors about him having it out with Searage. Where there is smoke, there's usually fire.
yeah, without knowing anything about the rumors, it seems like taking a shot with Liriano in 2017 would be a decent risk. When on, he can dominate for 6 innings. With him, Cole and Taillon that would be three pitchers that had a good chance to pitch a good game most of the time. Liriano was a bargain in 2014 and 2015.
Unlikely to get a replacement that performs as well as he did those years for that cost.
That's true, but he was not a bargain last year. He was arguably the worst pitcher in the NL and cost a lot of money. Add a bad attitude and you have a real problem. With the size of their budget, they really can't afford to have any wasted money. Especially as much as he was getting paid. He wasn't even replacement value.
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Leyland1948
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Thought I read somewhere that Liriano was causing Marte to start having an attitude as well. Bad influence maybe!
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1D002426284D0 wrote: I just think they were too quick to give up. He was good for us for several seasons and bad a few a few months and we pulled the cord. I'm not sure about the strategy of dealing with pitching depth issues by unloading pitchers.
I felt the same way. He seems like exactly the sort of guy the Pirates would be targeting this offseason. That said, I really do think that he must of been doing something off the field that they found detrimental. There are rumors about him having it out with Searage. Where there is smoke, there's usually fire.
yeah, without knowing anything about the rumors, it seems like taking a shot with Liriano in 2017 would be a decent risk. When on, he can dominate for 6 innings. With him, Cole and Taillon that would be three pitchers that had a good chance to pitch a good game most of the time. Liriano was a bargain in 2014 and 2015.
Unlikely to get a replacement that performs as well as he did those years for that cost.
That's true, but he was not a bargain last year. He was arguably the worst pitcher in the NL and cost a lot of money. Add a bad attitude and you have a real problem. With the size of their budget, they really can't afford to have any wasted money. Especially as much as he was getting paid. He wasn't even replacement value.
that is the big question. If the Pirates concluded that there was no way he was going to rebound then it makes sense to cut your losses. If they thought there was a 50% chance of him rebounding I think it would have been worth keeping him. His case is one that the intangibles (what team knows about him) can be the deciding factor. I don't believe the league got to know him rationale though. He still had good stuff, if the league got to know him was legitimate I think the Bucs would have tried to trade him to avoid that scenario.
I felt the same way. He seems like exactly the sort of guy the Pirates would be targeting this offseason. That said, I really do think that he must of been doing something off the field that they found detrimental. There are rumors about him having it out with Searage. Where there is smoke, there's usually fire.
yeah, without knowing anything about the rumors, it seems like taking a shot with Liriano in 2017 would be a decent risk. When on, he can dominate for 6 innings. With him, Cole and Taillon that would be three pitchers that had a good chance to pitch a good game most of the time. Liriano was a bargain in 2014 and 2015.
Unlikely to get a replacement that performs as well as he did those years for that cost.
That's true, but he was not a bargain last year. He was arguably the worst pitcher in the NL and cost a lot of money. Add a bad attitude and you have a real problem. With the size of their budget, they really can't afford to have any wasted money. Especially as much as he was getting paid. He wasn't even replacement value.
that is the big question. If the Pirates concluded that there was no way he was going to rebound then it makes sense to cut your losses. If they thought there was a 50% chance of him rebounding I think it would have been worth keeping him. His case is one that the intangibles (what team knows about him) can be the deciding factor. I don't believe the league got to know him rationale though. He still had good stuff, if the league got to know him was legitimate I think the Bucs would have tried to trade him to avoid that scenario.
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665458584C7E5D54595C5354350 wrote: I just think they were too quick to give up. He was good for us for several seasons and bad a few a few months and we pulled the cord. I'm not sure about the strategy of dealing with pitching depth issues by unloading pitchers.
This. Liriano was a key reason for the turnaround of the franchise. Simply put, we don't make the playoffs in 13-15 w/o him. He's exactly the type of pitcher we should be targeting this offseason. He'd look great slotting in as our #5. In my mind, this has easily been the worst trade of the NH era. Easily.
1. Cole
2. Taillon
3.
4. Kuhl
5. Liriano
Depending on who that #3 is, I could live with that rotation. As it is, we're looking at a repeat of last year where our #4 or 5 (Kuhl) is miscast as a #3, and guys who should be AAA depth (Williams, Brault, Kingham) are counted on to fill major holes in the rotation.
This. Liriano was a key reason for the turnaround of the franchise. Simply put, we don't make the playoffs in 13-15 w/o him. He's exactly the type of pitcher we should be targeting this offseason. He'd look great slotting in as our #5. In my mind, this has easily been the worst trade of the NH era. Easily.
1. Cole
2. Taillon
3.
4. Kuhl
5. Liriano
Depending on who that #3 is, I could live with that rotation. As it is, we're looking at a repeat of last year where our #4 or 5 (Kuhl) is miscast as a #3, and guys who should be AAA depth (Williams, Brault, Kingham) are counted on to fill major holes in the rotation.
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And one more thing...personally, I don't care if Liriano had it out with Searage. I'll bet that goes on a lot more than we think behind closed doors. Just because a couple gets in an argument doesn't mean they are about to get a divorce. These guys are together eight months out of the year. They see each other more than they see their own families. I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T get into the occasional argument.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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01090A3D2B0E2926480 wrote: And one more thing...personally, I don't care if Liriano had it out with Searage. I'll bet that goes on a lot more than we think behind closed doors. Just because a couple gets in an argument doesn't mean they are about to get a divorce. These guys are together eight months out of the year. They see each other more than they see their own families. I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T get into the occasional argument.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
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rucker59@gmail.com
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373C34383D3C276264132A323B3C3C7D303C530 wrote: And one more thing...personally, I don't care if Liriano had it out with Searage. I'll bet that goes on a lot more than we think behind closed doors. Just because a couple gets in an argument doesn't mean they are about to get a divorce. These guys are together eight months out of the year. They see each other more than they see their own families. I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T get into the occasional argument.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
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Maybe...but still petty if true. Heck, people in my office often times get into heated debates. As a manager, I expect that of my employees. It means they are thinking and trying to come up with creative ways to deal with a situation. I don't want a room full of "yes" men. Perhaps Liriano's head was getting too big. If it was, Ray should have just said, "Fine. Have it your way. Do what you want. BTW...what's your ERA this year?" If Liriano was comfortable "doing it his way," a quick look at his stats page on ESPN should have changed his mind.
Furthermore, what he was doing had clearly worked for three years. Why change all of a sudden? He clearly didn't think Searage was full of it his first three years in Pittsburgh. I just have a hard time believing that this was the reason he was dealt. I think it had to do with the fact that Liriano was terrible last year, and was overpaid relative to his results. So, he's gone. And, IMHO...that was a hasty judgment. Again, in my book, this is EASILY the worst of NH's trades.
Furthermore, what he was doing had clearly worked for three years. Why change all of a sudden? He clearly didn't think Searage was full of it his first three years in Pittsburgh. I just have a hard time believing that this was the reason he was dealt. I think it had to do with the fact that Liriano was terrible last year, and was overpaid relative to his results. So, he's gone. And, IMHO...that was a hasty judgment. Again, in my book, this is EASILY the worst of NH's trades.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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717660686671363A43646E626A6F2D606C6E030 wrote: And one more thing...personally, I don't care if Liriano had it out with Searage. I'll bet that goes on a lot more than we think behind closed doors. Just because a couple gets in an argument doesn't mean they are about to get a divorce. These guys are together eight months out of the year. They see each other more than they see their own families. I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T get into the occasional argument.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
Just what Searage said after he was traded. I did see some interviews in Spanish too, which is well noted. McCutchen questioned the trade at the time. I have no idea. All speculation on my part, sorry if that wasn't assumed. I am sure a lot of stuff stays in house, when it reaches the media it can't be good or could be more than one issue. Key word: could.
He was awful in 2016. I believe Huntington when he said he thinks the league figured him out. The NL wasn't swinging at his slider/curve in the dirt and he was walking close to six batters per nine innings. Even his nine strike outs per nine wasn't making up for all of those walks.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
Just what Searage said after he was traded. I did see some interviews in Spanish too, which is well noted. McCutchen questioned the trade at the time. I have no idea. All speculation on my part, sorry if that wasn't assumed. I am sure a lot of stuff stays in house, when it reaches the media it can't be good or could be more than one issue. Key word: could.
He was awful in 2016. I believe Huntington when he said he thinks the league figured him out. The NL wasn't swinging at his slider/curve in the dirt and he was walking close to six batters per nine innings. Even his nine strike outs per nine wasn't making up for all of those walks.
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6E656D6164657E3B3D4A736B6265652469650A0 wrote: And one more thing...personally, I don't care if Liriano had it out with Searage. I'll bet that goes on a lot more than we think behind closed doors. Just because a couple gets in an argument doesn't mean they are about to get a divorce. These guys are together eight months out of the year. They see each other more than they see their own families. I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T get into the occasional argument.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
Just what Searage said after he was traded. I did see some interviews in Spanish too, which is well noted. McCutchen questioned the trade at the time. I have no idea. All speculation on my part, sorry if that wasn't assumed. I am sure a lot of stuff stays in house, when it reaches the media it can't be good or could be more than one issue. Key word: could.
He was awful in 2016. I believe Huntington when he said he thinks the league figured him out. The NL wasn't swinging at his slider/curve in the dirt and he was walking close to six batters per nine innings. Even his nine strike outs per nine wasn't making up for all of those walks.
I don't think his record shows the league had figured him out.
He was inconsistent but still put up decent starts for Pirates. In July it looked like he was starting to get back to being decent. His first 4 games he threw 22.2 innings, allowed 18 hits, 1 homer, 8 walks and 23 strikeouts. Then he was crushed by Seattle and Milwaukee (the day he was dealt). If the league had figured him out he shouldn't have been able to do that. In Toronto his last 4 starts he 24.2 innings and allowed 4 earned runs.
His ERA+ with Toronto was better than Nova's with the Pirates.
Maybe it was Russell Martin that helped him.
You better be playing well before you argue with management. McCutchen is upset or was upset, but he will be back. His play on the field warrants that. Liriano's play was awful. usually, the coach gets fired. So, that shows you what they thought of Liriano and his skills if that was part of the reason why he was shipped out.
Is there any hard evidence that Liriano had become some sort of cancer?
Just what Searage said after he was traded. I did see some interviews in Spanish too, which is well noted. McCutchen questioned the trade at the time. I have no idea. All speculation on my part, sorry if that wasn't assumed. I am sure a lot of stuff stays in house, when it reaches the media it can't be good or could be more than one issue. Key word: could.
He was awful in 2016. I believe Huntington when he said he thinks the league figured him out. The NL wasn't swinging at his slider/curve in the dirt and he was walking close to six batters per nine innings. Even his nine strike outs per nine wasn't making up for all of those walks.
I don't think his record shows the league had figured him out.
He was inconsistent but still put up decent starts for Pirates. In July it looked like he was starting to get back to being decent. His first 4 games he threw 22.2 innings, allowed 18 hits, 1 homer, 8 walks and 23 strikeouts. Then he was crushed by Seattle and Milwaukee (the day he was dealt). If the league had figured him out he shouldn't have been able to do that. In Toronto his last 4 starts he 24.2 innings and allowed 4 earned runs.
His ERA+ with Toronto was better than Nova's with the Pirates.
Maybe it was Russell Martin that helped him.