6A7753515F3A0 wrote: Prior to the game Hurdle was talking about how time is getting short for the Pirates to win the games they need to win. Then to play the 1st place Cubs, he moves Marte--after a 3-hit game the day before--to 6th and puts S-Rod--hitting below the Mendoza line--at leadoff and "rests" Harrison against a LHP--when Harrison is hitting .294 vs LHP. And he starts Stewart over Diaz even tho he feels compelled to PH for Stewart in the 8th? What the heck is he resting players for? The season is nearing its end. What has his obsession with rest done for this team? How is any of this logical? I know it won't make much difference to change managers if Nutting won't even have an average payroll to improve the roster. But it's maddening to watch Hurdle appear to be in another dimension where winning would be nice but no effort will be made to bring that about. Yea I was one of the guys who thinks keeping Hurdle around another year or so would be a good move but right now I am not so sure. This resting players game in and game out over trying to win games is starting to get real tiresome and maybe it's time to make a change.
It's tough to win a series if you don't win the first game. In the last 3 series, he rested Bell in game 1 vs LA, Cutch in game 1 vs Cin and Harrison in game 1 vs Cubs. The Pirates don't have a great lineup to begin with but always doing the other team a favor by sitting out the more productive players is certainly counterproductive. I really don't know what has happened to Hurdle this year but he has consistently run the team in a nonchalant manner as if no particular effort to win games is necessary. Maybe he is seeing himself as a ground breaker using advanced metrics, shifts, a basketball strategy for resting players and feels that these innovations supersede winning games.
It seems like every player gets at least one day off a week with Hurdle. This was surprising...
The Pirates have played 132 games
Josh Bell has played 130. That's second most in all of baseball behind Votto (131)
McCutchen - 128 (tied for 16th)
Harrison & Mercer - 124 (tied for 47th)
Freese - 107 (144th)
If Marte wasn't suspended, I'd think he'd be up by McCutchen.
I was sort of surprised by those numbers. Maybe Hurdle doesn't rest players more than all of the other teams.
Don't know it compares to others but Bell has started 115 games (including 2 at DH) Freese has started 96, Cutch 126, Votto has started everygame he's been in (131), Harrison 118 starts.
I think Hurdle does rest players pretty often but gets them into the game at some point (pinch hitting, double switches).
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
A closer look at those numbers. Games played includes PH appearances, late inning defense or playing less than a full game. Votto started 131. Bell only started 115 games (67th). He completed only 84. Cutch started 126 games (tied for 15th). Harrison started 118 (tied for 60th). Freese started 96 (146th).
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
4C616C7D7A6B7C3C3F0E0 wrote: A closer look at those numbers. Games played includes PH appearances, late inning defense or playing less than a full game. Votto started 131. Bell only started 115 games (67th). He completed only 84. Cutch started 126 games (tied for 15th). Harrison started 118 (tied for 60th). Freese started 96 (146th).
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
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Bobster21
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
1C012527294C0 wrote: A closer look at those numbers. Games played includes PH appearances, late inning defense or playing less than a full game. Votto started 131. Bell only started 115 games (67th). He completed only 84. Cutch started 126 games (tied for 15th). Harrison started 118 (tied for 60th). Freese started 96 (146th).
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
I find it odd that Hurdle uses an NBA model for resting baseball players. In the NBA, if you are on the court you are hustling 100% of the time, running, jumping and banging bodies. You get a few minutes on the bench to catch your breath and then right back on the court. Nothing like baseball where 50% of the game has you sitting on the bench watching your teammates bat. If you're lucky you might have to run the base 2-3 times in a 3-hour game. In the field, you might get a handful of plays at most. Hurdle likes to point out that Bell has played IN almost every game. Yet he's only played complete games in 84 of 132. He didn't start 17 of them. Gee, watching the game from the bench and then batting once as a PHer must be exhausting. But Hurdle sees every appearance as NBA style, running, jumping and banging. There's something very wrong with Hurdle's thinking. He needs to go. Yesterday!
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
I find it odd that Hurdle uses an NBA model for resting baseball players. In the NBA, if you are on the court you are hustling 100% of the time, running, jumping and banging bodies. You get a few minutes on the bench to catch your breath and then right back on the court. Nothing like baseball where 50% of the game has you sitting on the bench watching your teammates bat. If you're lucky you might have to run the base 2-3 times in a 3-hour game. In the field, you might get a handful of plays at most. Hurdle likes to point out that Bell has played IN almost every game. Yet he's only played complete games in 84 of 132. He didn't start 17 of them. Gee, watching the game from the bench and then batting once as a PHer must be exhausting. But Hurdle sees every appearance as NBA style, running, jumping and banging. There's something very wrong with Hurdle's thinking. He needs to go. Yesterday!
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
Does that Elias (sp?) Sports bureau track the number of innings players play? That might be a better test. The position players certainly seem to get a lot of rest days (and that could be good, but there do seem to be a lot). Pitchers, on the other hand, do not. I know they all have individual goals, and innings pitched performance clauses either in their contract or in their arbitration argument, but it seems like a rest now and then for a starter might be a good idea. I think the Dodgers have done that this year, using the 10-day DL to give pitchers an extra blow (note, if the Pirates had done that, MLB would change the rule next year).
8/28 vs Cubs. -- very superstitious
092429383F2E39797A4B0 wrote: A closer look at those numbers. Games played includes PH appearances, late inning defense or playing less than a full game. Votto started 131. Bell only started 115 games (67th). He completed only 84. Cutch started 126 games (tied for 15th). Harrison started 118 (tied for 60th). Freese started 96 (146th).
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
I find it odd that Hurdle uses an NBA model for resting baseball players. In the NBA, if you are on the court you are hustling 100% of the time, running, jumping and banging bodies. You get a few minutes on the bench to catch your breath and then right back on the court. Nothing like baseball where 50% of the game has you sitting on the bench watching your teammates bat. If you're lucky you might have to run the base 2-3 times in a 3-hour game. In the field, you might get a handful of plays at most. Hurdle likes to point out that Bell has played IN almost every game. Yet he's only played complete games in 84 of 132. He didn't start 17 of them. Gee, watching the game from the bench and then batting once as a PHer must be exhausting. But Hurdle sees every appearance as NBA style, running, jumping and banging. There's something very wrong with Hurdle's thinking. He needs to go. Yesterday!
Based on what I've read, the attempt to use techniques that the Warriors use came from the Pirates organization, not from Hurdle:
http://www.espn.com/blog/spring-trainin ... s-warriors
Turns out the Pirates didn't just stumble into this info by reading a random magazine story. They are always studying successful teams in all sports. GM Neal Huntington told ESPN.com they noticed this trend in a study of the Warriors by a member of their front office.
In fact, the Pirates organization hired Chris Johnson, who worked for the Warriors.
http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1018 ... lly-harris
The Pirates continue to look beyond baseball for competitive advantages. Last summer, they hired Chris Johnson, a member of the Golden State Warriors' performance staff.
http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1018 ... lly-harris
“It's maximizing performance,” Huntington said. “How do we help this player get better every day and perform as consistently as possible?”
I have no beef with Hurdle being gone after the season. I used to think he was a very good manager for this group of players, but this is a very different group of players now. He's done enough stupid stuff in games, that while I don't remotely think he's the issue with this organization, I don't really think he's helping a whole lot anymore, either.
That said, I wanted to at least add this in to the thread. The emulation of the Warriors wasn't Clint's doing.
That sort of extrapolation of the numbers doesn't jive with Hurdle's philosophy about getting guys a whole day off. Knowing that they are coming to the ballpark and not getting in the game. Is it really that much more effort to play a whole game than to play 6 innings, or the last 2 innings, or pinch hit??
I find it odd that Hurdle uses an NBA model for resting baseball players. In the NBA, if you are on the court you are hustling 100% of the time, running, jumping and banging bodies. You get a few minutes on the bench to catch your breath and then right back on the court. Nothing like baseball where 50% of the game has you sitting on the bench watching your teammates bat. If you're lucky you might have to run the base 2-3 times in a 3-hour game. In the field, you might get a handful of plays at most. Hurdle likes to point out that Bell has played IN almost every game. Yet he's only played complete games in 84 of 132. He didn't start 17 of them. Gee, watching the game from the bench and then batting once as a PHer must be exhausting. But Hurdle sees every appearance as NBA style, running, jumping and banging. There's something very wrong with Hurdle's thinking. He needs to go. Yesterday!
Based on what I've read, the attempt to use techniques that the Warriors use came from the Pirates organization, not from Hurdle:
http://www.espn.com/blog/spring-trainin ... s-warriors
Turns out the Pirates didn't just stumble into this info by reading a random magazine story. They are always studying successful teams in all sports. GM Neal Huntington told ESPN.com they noticed this trend in a study of the Warriors by a member of their front office.
In fact, the Pirates organization hired Chris Johnson, who worked for the Warriors.
http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1018 ... lly-harris
The Pirates continue to look beyond baseball for competitive advantages. Last summer, they hired Chris Johnson, a member of the Golden State Warriors' performance staff.
http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/1018 ... lly-harris
“It's maximizing performance,” Huntington said. “How do we help this player get better every day and perform as consistently as possible?”
I have no beef with Hurdle being gone after the season. I used to think he was a very good manager for this group of players, but this is a very different group of players now. He's done enough stupid stuff in games, that while I don't remotely think he's the issue with this organization, I don't really think he's helping a whole lot anymore, either.
That said, I wanted to at least add this in to the thread. The emulation of the Warriors wasn't Clint's doing.