Dog mentioned the period 2009-2013. In 2009 the Astros were 74-88 but had MLB's 8th highest opening day payroll. In 2010, they were 76-86 and 14th in payroll. So they were wasting money. They lost 106+ games the next 3 years and 92 games in 2014 but were 28th in payroll in 2012 and last the next two years. They turned things around in 2015 going 86-76 while being 29th in payroll. In 2016 they went 84-78 and were again last in payroll.
Also during that period the Pirates were under .500 in 2009-2012 with opening day payrolls ranging from 26-30 those years. In 2013, the Pirates jumped to 20th in payroll while adding 15 wins for a 94-68 record. But they fell to 88-74 in 2014 with the 27th ranked payroll. They had their 98-win season in 2015 with a payroll ranked 25th.
And here's where the Pirates and Astros took different paths. The Pirates followed up on their 98-win season by reducing their opening day payroll for 2016 with the main additions being Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong. They won 20 fewer games. The Astros raised an opening day payroll of 69 million in 2016 to 118 million for 2017. They jumped from 30th to 18th in payroll by adding McCann, Reddick and Beltran. The Astros made a financial commitment to add key pieces that turned a low payroll into an average payroll. They won 17 more games. Their WS opponent has the highest payroll in MLB. This shows it helps to be a big spender but you don't have to be. But neither can you refuse to improve the roster with key pieces and if you're smart like the Astros, you can do that and still maintain just an average payroll. So we can say that if the Astros did it, so can the Pirates. But when the Pirates settle for players like Jaso, Niese and Vogelsong to avoid even an average payroll, then they are taking a different path from the one that worked for the Astros.
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Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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1D303D2C2B3A2D6D6E5F0 wrote: They jumped from 30th to 18th in payroll by adding McCann, Reddick and Beltran. The Astros made a financial commitment to add key pieces that turned a low payroll into an average payroll.
The interesting thing about the Beltran signing is that the Astros probably knew that they were overpaying for a 40 yo player. But they identified him as someone who could be a clubhouse leader. Something that really came in handy when he served as an intermediary between Darvish and Gurriel.
Based on production alone, a signing like that for the Bucs would probably result in them trading away two of their top five prospects in a package to dump the salary.
True financial flexibility means you don't have to panic when you make a questionable decision.
The interesting thing about the Beltran signing is that the Astros probably knew that they were overpaying for a 40 yo player. But they identified him as someone who could be a clubhouse leader. Something that really came in handy when he served as an intermediary between Darvish and Gurriel.
Based on production alone, a signing like that for the Bucs would probably result in them trading away two of their top five prospects in a package to dump the salary.
True financial flexibility means you don't have to panic when you make a questionable decision.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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I still think it wasn't a plan to reduce payroll for 2016. They thought they had players in place or brought in players better or just as good for the players they lost. They were wrong.
Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
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Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
(having computer issues, keep needed to modify)
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707B737F7A7B602523546D757C7B7B3A777B140 wrote: I still think it wasn't a plan to reduce payroll for 2016. They thought they had players in place or brought in players better or just as good for the players they lost. They were wrong.
Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
(having computer issues, keep needed to modify)
Yeah ok buddy.
Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
(having computer issues, keep needed to modify)
Yeah ok buddy.
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I think the real question will be what happens when Correa, Altuve, Springer, Gurriel, Keuchel, McCullers, et all hit their high level arb years and FA. When the Pirates pay those guys salaries commensurate with the CBA, it's called raising payroll. When 29 others teams do that, it's called the cost of doing business. High payroll or low, I don't care. You can overpay for lousy, aging veterans, or have a team full of young superstars. The question is what will you do with your talent when they start making more money. As the Pirates have shown with guys like Neil Walker, their preference (if they can't sign them to extremely team friends extensions) is to let guys like that walk. Or, trade them for fodder.
The Pirates, rarely, if ever, extend guys like that. Now, to be fair, they haven't exactly had a lot of players who would warrant an extension. Andrew McCutchen might be the first one in the NH era, and not for what he will do going forward, but for what he has done for the organization thus far in his career. Even there, the question remains as to whether or not McCutchen would even WANT to sign an extension here, even if the money was right. I mean, would you want to play for an organization that has not shown any consistent commitment to putting a winning team on the field? If Joey Votto could get out of Cincinnati right now, would he?
The Pirates, rarely, if ever, extend guys like that. Now, to be fair, they haven't exactly had a lot of players who would warrant an extension. Andrew McCutchen might be the first one in the NH era, and not for what he will do going forward, but for what he has done for the organization thus far in his career. Even there, the question remains as to whether or not McCutchen would even WANT to sign an extension here, even if the money was right. I mean, would you want to play for an organization that has not shown any consistent commitment to putting a winning team on the field? If Joey Votto could get out of Cincinnati right now, would he?
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SammyKhalifa
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6B6360574164434C220 wrote: I think the real question will be what happens when Correa, Altuve, Springer, Gurriel, Keuchel, McCullers, et all hit their high level arb years and FA. When the Pirates pay those guys salaries commensurate with the CBA, it's called raising payroll. When 29 others teams do that, it's called the cost of doing business. High payroll or low, I don't care. You can overpay for lousy, aging veterans, or have a team full of young superstars. The question is what will you do with your talent when they start making more money. As the Pirates have shown with guys like Neil Walker, their preference (if they can't sign them to extremely team friends extensions) is to let guys like that walk. Or, trade them for fodder.
The Pirates, rarely, if ever, extend guys like that. Now, to be fair, they haven't exactly had a lot of players who would warrant an extension. Andrew McCutchen might be the first one in the NH era, and not for what he will do going forward, but for what he has done for the organization thus far in his career. Even there, the question remains as to whether or not McCutchen would even WANT to sign an extension here, even if the money was right. I mean, would you want to play for an organization that has not shown any consistent commitment to putting a winning team on the field? If Joey Votto could get out of Cincinnati right now, would he?
It's hard to know what their income will be and whether they can do it. They could go the way of Kansas City--who did everything right, have smart moves, etc., but will not be able to keep everything. It's not right.
The Pirates, rarely, if ever, extend guys like that. Now, to be fair, they haven't exactly had a lot of players who would warrant an extension. Andrew McCutchen might be the first one in the NH era, and not for what he will do going forward, but for what he has done for the organization thus far in his career. Even there, the question remains as to whether or not McCutchen would even WANT to sign an extension here, even if the money was right. I mean, would you want to play for an organization that has not shown any consistent commitment to putting a winning team on the field? If Joey Votto could get out of Cincinnati right now, would he?
It's hard to know what their income will be and whether they can do it. They could go the way of Kansas City--who did everything right, have smart moves, etc., but will not be able to keep everything. It's not right.
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666D65696C6D763335427B636A6D6D2C616D020 wrote: I still think it wasn't a plan to reduce payroll for 2016. They thought they had players in place or brought in players better or just as good for the players they lost. They were wrong.
Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
(having computer issues, keep needed to modify)
it sure was bad talent evaluation. however, money was a factor, it determined the players they even considered acquiring.
Harrison wasn't better than Walker. Jaso wasn't better than Alvarez. Niese, Vogelsong and Nicasio weren't better than Morton and Burnett.
Many here liked the replacements for Walker and Alvarez. I understood Harrison, but I didn't like the Jaso signing. You are right, it was bad trying to convert Jaso to 1B, but they did have success (team record wise) moving Alvarez to 1B (the worst 1B I have ever seen in my life).
Burnett was great with the Pirates. I don't know why they thought Niese could replace him. They did pay Niese more than they paid Burnett, so hard to say that was a money move. Many were done with Morton and Locke in the rotation. Vogelsong had a similar 2015 as Morton. On paper, that move didn't bother me. With Taillon coming up, probably thought only needed a few months of a Vogelsong/Nicasio (still have no idea why they didn't start Vogelsong over Nicasio sooner, but oh well).
These moved failed. But In my opinion, it was a bad talent evaluation and not just based on money. They got rid of $30 million in the four players mentioned. They moved on based on talent and a retirement, not totally because of money in my opinion.
The Pirates still added to the core of young players in bringing in Martin, Burnett and then trading for guys like Lee, Byrd, Morneau, Happ, Soria, and Ludwig at the deadline.
There are some similarities as drafting and having a young core got the Pirates over the top and in the playoffs. To compare to the Astros, the Pirates didn't need a Beltran and brought in their McCann for the 2013-2015 seasons. They came up short. They lost the WC game two out of three years. Not sure why 2016 is always brought up, I was talking about more from 2011-2015 as the Pirates built up a young core, brought in guys to help. The Astros have a great core. Hopefully, they can make the playoffs three years in a row too. They did miss last year after a WC game win in 2015.
(having computer issues, keep needed to modify)
it sure was bad talent evaluation. however, money was a factor, it determined the players they even considered acquiring.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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The Pirates extended a bunch of guys?? Walker was a mistake, but they extended Harrison instead.
Still not sure why the 2016 Pirates are being compared to the Astros. Compare the 2013 Pirates to the Astros. Both won their Wild Card game. Both lost their Division Series. Two years later, the Pirates won 98 games and the Astros won 101 games.
Still not sure why the 2016 Pirates are being compared to the Astros. Compare the 2013 Pirates to the Astros. Both won their Wild Card game. Both lost their Division Series. Two years later, the Pirates won 98 games and the Astros won 101 games.
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Bobster21
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7B70787471706B2E285F667E777070317C701F0 wrote: The Pirates extended a bunch of guys?? Walker was a mistake, but they extended Harrison instead.
Still not sure why the 2016 Pirates are being compared to the Astros. Compare the 2013 Pirates to the Astros. Both won their Wild Card game. Both lost their Division Series. Two years later, the Pirates won 98 games and the Astros won 101 games.
I guess you're saying compare the 2013 Pirates to the 2015 Astros. Sure, you can take snapshots in time and say they were similar when comparing a year of the Pirates with a different year of the Astros. But you entirely miss the big picture. The Pirates subsequently allowed their team to deteriorate while keeping payroll among MLB's lowest. The Astros were willing to add good players and go from bottom feeders in payroll to average payroll. Unless we restrict ourselves to the very limited time frames you cite, the difference in how these 2 teams operate is staggering. STOP GRASPING AT STRAWS!!!!
Still not sure why the 2016 Pirates are being compared to the Astros. Compare the 2013 Pirates to the Astros. Both won their Wild Card game. Both lost their Division Series. Two years later, the Pirates won 98 games and the Astros won 101 games.
I guess you're saying compare the 2013 Pirates to the 2015 Astros. Sure, you can take snapshots in time and say they were similar when comparing a year of the Pirates with a different year of the Astros. But you entirely miss the big picture. The Pirates subsequently allowed their team to deteriorate while keeping payroll among MLB's lowest. The Astros were willing to add good players and go from bottom feeders in payroll to average payroll. Unless we restrict ourselves to the very limited time frames you cite, the difference in how these 2 teams operate is staggering. STOP GRASPING AT STRAWS!!!!
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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I am not grasping at anything. You are just so infatuated with team payroll. Drafting, getting that young core is why these teams are winning and growing to get better. It's like if the Pirates would have signed Kang, Burnett, Liriano and any other free agent for double what they got you would be happier.
I'm more worried about their talent evaluation than their spending. They need that special draftee to be an MVP candidate. That's what they are missing in my opinion.
I'm more worried about their talent evaluation than their spending. They need that special draftee to be an MVP candidate. That's what they are missing in my opinion.