Strategies

[Bobster21]

747F777B7E7F642127506971787F7F3E737F100 wrote: It's a shame people didn't enjoy 2011-2015 and just focus on complaining about 2016 and 2017.    




Anybody else catch this gem?



Look where the goalposts have been moved to now.



2011 and 2012, the two worst collapses, in franchise history, in back to back seasons, no less, are now included in what are considered to be the good years for this management team?



Ha!!! Ha!!! Very nice. That's real success!!


Yeah, been saying it for a long time.  Where have you been?  That was the end of the rebuild and when the team going forward was pretty much put together.  Very bad collapses for sure, but the core was finally playing together knowing other pieces were coming up. 



Keep focusing on 2016 and 2017...stay negative!


Dog, it's not as simple as merely choosing to be positive or choosing to be negative. It's not as simple as they were losing, then they were winning, now they are losing, so they can win again. Fans focus on 2016 and 2017 because that's where we are. We are where we are because of a shift in how the team is run. The priority of building a winner has been replaced by the priority of saving money. There is frustrating consistency in the nature (or lack of) personnel moves these past 2 years that has had a direct consequence on the team's ability to compete. Staying positive won't change that. Focusing on the years prior to the discouraging way the team is now run won't change that. Just like you, all the posters here want the Pirates to succeed and be serious contenders. But unlike you, most posters recognize the serious flaws in how the team has been operated these last 2 years and find it unacceptable and taking the joy out of rooting for the team we all love. If I thought choosing to stay positive would turn this team around, I'd be grinning like a fool during every shutout loss. But the Nutting regime took the team to a good place and then shifted philosophies and downgraded the team into what we now see. As long as they choose to lower payroll and settle for mediocre players instead of adding key players, there won't be much to be positive about. 




I understand the flaws, I point them out too.  You are right, I do focus on the positives more than the negatives. 



I don't think there was a shift in philosophes.  The talent changed.  The talent was worse.  That doesn't mean it won't change back to where they were winners and contenders.  I do give the benefit of the doubt to Huntington because he did it before.  He turned the franchise around big time.  Now, it's he is a bad GM, can never compete, will never be good again.  I do not understand that thought process at all. 



Every thread now someone brings up the Ownership and mocks The Best Management Team in Baseball.  Sorry, I don't want to get on board with the negative overtone and ask questions on why people who dislike the Owner so much but continue to support him with their money.
Dog, like you, I don't blame NH or think he's a bad GM. I believe he was extended because Nutting knows no GM could do better under the severe financial constraints he must work under. The drop off in talent has not been because NH is a bad GM. It's because he can't compete with other GMs financially to obtain the right talent. Not even with the middle of the road payroll teams. Not even after franchise record attendance. Not even "when the time is right" didn't mean a few tweaks to a 98-win team. Our GM is hamstrung by an owner whose priority seems to be to cut costs, maximize profit, and have the best team possible under those impossible circumstances. Contending teams don't operate that way. Personally, I believer Nutting had the best of intentions when he became principal owner. Things culminated in the 98-win season. But when it then became apparent that the team needed to improve its starting pitching and get a better 1Bman, the payroll, which was already quite low and presumably had room to grow, went down as Jaso and Vogelsong were signed to fill those needs. Which, of course, they couldn't from day 1. It's no fluke that the team deteriorated these past 2 years. And under the current mgt style, a continuation of that slide is, unfortunately, far more likely than a reversal. That's why fans are negative. Not because they fail to appreciate what NH was able to do for a few years. Not because they have a personal agenda to hate mgt or because they are just negative people. The people who are negative now are the same people who were so excited when the team was built to contend. But the Nutting regime has an obligation to the fans to at least try to field a competitive team. When they begin a season(s) after failing to address needs in the off season with predictably poor results, the fans do not have an obligation to the Nutting regime to be supportive and hail every move made or not made.

[mouse]

To win with a low budget you have to have players who preform above their pay level. Those players are typically ones who are in the first three years of their playing days, or if in arb years, are ones without big salary bites. Occasionally a refurbished player will give a year or two. NH's problem is that his core talent is getting more expensive and the players he brought in hoping for one more year, weren't able to give him the one more year. For 2018, I think they are expecting the young pitching staff to give good starts, and the younger position players to be able to manage. I don't expect to see an influx of experienced, quality talent. I do expect to see more experienced veterans, who are getting paid at close to (or perhaps even over) their performance level, to be traded for younger players who at least have a hope of outperforming their salaries. If NH gets lucky, and the pitchers do perform, we could have another year where we threaten for the playoffs. If not, another year like this year or last.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

It just doesn't come off that way. Not just here, social media outlets and on the streets. After the extensions, I had two strangers say how bad the Pirates are and ask me why did they extend Huntington at a Dunkin Donuts. I had a Pirates hat on.



I just think they can do it again. They need to work in windows of opportunity. They need to find those guys who will over produce (if that is the case). They need to draft better. They need to trade an actual prospect and not worry about what they will become down the road and worry about who they traded for will produce.



Huntington shouldn't blame anyone. Huntington needs to get better at his job. He can. He just turned around a franchise. He can do it again. If he keeps failing, then Yes, I won't be on his side. Right now, he gets my benefit of doubt.



Good posts, IA, Mouse, and Bobster!

[Ecbucs]

5B50585451504B0E087F465E575050115C503F0 wrote: It just doesn't come off that way.  Not just here, social media outlets and on the streets.  After the extensions, I had two strangers say how bad the Pirates are and ask me why did they extend Huntington at a Dunkin Donuts.  I had a Pirates hat on. 



I just think they can do it again.  They need to work in windows of opportunity.  They need to find those guys who will over produce (if that is the case).  They need to draft better.  They need to trade an actual prospect and not worry about what they will become down the road and worry about who they traded for will produce.



Huntington shouldn't blame anyone.  Huntington needs to get better at his job.  He can.  He just turned around a franchise.  He can do it again.  If he keeps failing, then Yes, I won't be on his side.  Right now, he gets my benefit of doubt.



Good posts, IA, Mouse, and Bobster!


As I said in another post, this contract extension for him will tell the tale. If the team continues to operate with same budget limitations there is almost no chance of building a winner without being extremely lucky. Luck isn't a strategy.



Either NH was able to get some promise of additional resources or he has sold out on any desire to realistically compete for a championship and has settled for competitive (which can just mean as little as being within a few games of the wild card at the trade deadline).

[mouse]

The only comment I would add to that is that it's hard to draft well when the team is doing better, as you are pushed down in the draft order and have less money to spend. It's a lot easier to be good at drafting if you are picking at five than if you are picking at twenty-five, so I don't blame NH too much.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

0B2D2C3B2D3D4E0 wrote: It just doesn't come off that way.  Not just here, social media outlets and on the streets.  After the extensions, I had two strangers say how bad the Pirates are and ask me why did they extend Huntington at a Dunkin Donuts.  I had a Pirates hat on. 



I just think they can do it again.  They need to work in windows of opportunity.  They need to find those guys who will over produce (if that is the case).  They need to draft better.  They need to trade an actual prospect and not worry about what they will become down the road and worry about who they traded for will produce.



Huntington shouldn't blame anyone.  Huntington needs to get better at his job.  He can.  He just turned around a franchise.  He can do it again.  If he keeps failing, then Yes, I won't be on his side.  Right now, he gets my benefit of doubt.



Good posts, IA, Mouse, and Bobster!


As I said in another post, this contract extension for him will tell the tale.  If the team continues to operate with same budget limitations there is almost no chance of building a winner without being extremely lucky.  Luck isn't a strategy.



Either NH was able to get some promise of additional resources or he has sold out on any desire to realistically compete for a championship and has settled for competitive (which can just mean as little as being within a few games of the wild card at the trade deadline).






Do you think the last playoff run was just luck?



I don't at all. They brought up the right players, they brought in the right players, and they made the right deadline deals too.



Drafting needs improved. Look where Trout, Judge, Bellinger were drafted? I know they are special players, but the Pirates have had the opportunities to get all of those guys.

[notes34]

3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote: It just doesn't come off that way.  Not just here, social media outlets and on the streets.  After the extensions, I had two strangers say how bad the Pirates are and ask me why did they extend Huntington at a Dunkin Donuts.  I had a Pirates hat on. 



I just think they can do it again.  They need to work in windows of opportunity.  They need to find those guys who will over produce (if that is the case).  They need to draft better.  They need to trade an actual prospect and not worry about what they will become down the road and worry about who they traded for will produce.



Huntington shouldn't blame anyone.  Huntington needs to get better at his job.  He can.  He just turned around a franchise.  He can do it again.  If he keeps failing, then Yes, I won't be on his side.  Right now, he gets my benefit of doubt.



Good posts, IA, Mouse, and Bobster!


As I said in another post, this contract extension for him will tell the tale.  If the team continues to operate with same budget limitations there is almost no chance of building a winner without being extremely lucky.  Luck isn't a strategy.



Either NH was able to get some promise of additional resources or he has sold out on any desire to realistically compete for a championship and has settled for competitive (which can just mean as little as being within a few games of the wild card at the trade deadline).






Do you think the last playoff run was just luck?



I don't at all.  They brought up the right players, they brought in the right players, and they made the right deadline deals too.



Drafting needs improved.  Look where Trout, Judge, Bellinger were drafted?  I know they are special players, but the Pirates have had the opportunities to get all of those guys. 


Honestly yes there was a lot of luck involved. They hit on Burnett, Martin, Happ, Volquez and for the most part Liriano. All of these players produced over and above what was expected. That strategy is not conducive to sustained success. Yes they will hit on more players, but to expect to continue to pull guys in that are either underperforming or nearing the end of their careers and expect to extract more value from them than is expected is not a good strategy.

[Ecbucs]

4F444C4045445F1A1C6B524A4344440548442B0 wrote: It just doesn't come off that way.  Not just here, social media outlets and on the streets.  After the extensions, I had two strangers say how bad the Pirates are and ask me why did they extend Huntington at a Dunkin Donuts.  I had a Pirates hat on. 



I just think they can do it again.  They need to work in windows of opportunity.  They need to find those guys who will over produce (if that is the case).  They need to draft better.  They need to trade an actual prospect and not worry about what they will become down the road and worry about who they traded for will produce.



Huntington shouldn't blame anyone.  Huntington needs to get better at his job.  He can.  He just turned around a franchise.  He can do it again.  If he keeps failing, then Yes, I won't be on his side.  Right now, he gets my benefit of doubt.



Good posts, IA, Mouse, and Bobster!


As I said in another post, this contract extension for him will tell the tale.  If the team continues to operate with same budget limitations there is almost no chance of building a winner without being extremely lucky.  Luck isn't a strategy.



Either NH was able to get some promise of additional resources or he has sold out on any desire to realistically compete for a championship and has settled for competitive (which can just mean as little as being within a few games of the wild card at the trade deadline).






Do you think the last playoff run was just luck?



I don't at all.  They brought up the right players, they brought in the right players, and they made the right deadline deals too.



Drafting needs improved.  Look where Trout, Judge, Bellinger were drafted?  I know they are special players, but the Pirates have had the opportunities to get all of those guys. 




I don't think it was all luck but certainly some was involved. But I also don't think just because you have done it once it can be repeated. That's why managers, gm's and players get replaced often. Players have career years and expecting them to repeat those years or come back to that high point a couple years later doesn't happen that often.

[SammyKhalifa]

You could say the same things about the bad times too, though. THere were certainly mistakes made--too many--but you can't credit winning with luck if you're not at the same time blaming it to a small extent for losing.



This is not to say that I'm happy with the current state of things, but I feel you need to stay consistent. You hear too often the other way around, too--when things go bad it's because of some unfair/unlucky thing that happened but when they go well it's all "us."

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

That's just it:



When good things happened, it was because they were lucky. When the bad things happen, its because they stink.



Ugh!