Looking Back on 3 Trades Which Upgraded The Bucs

fjk090852-7 · Post by **fjk090852-7** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:02 pm

Even though this season has not been what we expected, I think many of us think the Bucs can again compete in 2018 with some upgrades to the roster. I can think of three trades the Bucs have made over the years which either brought them a World Championship or helped them make the postseason. The first trade in early 1959, which I was a little young to remember brought the Bucs Don Hoak, Harvey Haddix and Smokey Burgess for a very good player in Frank Thomas. The second trade was in late 1986 I believe when the Bucs moved Rick Rhoden for Doug Drabek, Brian Fisher, and Logan Easley. Drabek was the key player in this deal as he became the ace of the Bucs staff in the early 1990's. The final trade which helped the 1990-1992 clubs was the trading of the very popular Tony Pena to the Cards for Mike Lavaliere , Andy VanSlyke and Mike Dunne. I think in order for the Bucs to get back to the postseason they have to possibly think out of the box and trade possibly a player who may be part of their core such as Cole, Marte or Polanco who could bring back a few pieces to make this team challenge for the postseason again.

INbuc · Post by **INbuc** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:23 pm

I remember the last two of those trades. Of course getting Drabek was golden, and the trade of Pena really yielded a great return. And I agree we would be best served shuffling some roster pieces to strengthen the team next year and beyond.

The one trade that has never faded from my mind was in 1979 when we got Bill Madlock from the Giants for Ed Whitson and Al Holland. That turned a very good team into world champions.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:14 pm

Money is a much greater factor in trades now throughout MLB than it was in other eras. A fair trade used to be talent for talent. Now it's only enough talent to compensate for taking a huge contract off of whoever is being traded.

DemDog · Post by **DemDog** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:16 pm

I remember them all. the 1959 Frank Thomas trade just broke my heart. He was the favorite Bucco for a 9 yr old kid. And this trade was the only one that brought the Buccos a WS win. The other two were very successful in making the team quite competitive but they never won a WS.

steve49 · Post by **steve49** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:01 pm

614048614A42250 wrote: I remember them all. the 1959 Frank Thomas trade just broke my heart. He was the favorite Bucco for a 9 yr old kid. And this trade was the only one that brought the Buccos a WS win. The other two were very successful in making the team quite competitive but they never won a WS.

I was also 9 years old. 11-22 1949. I just barely followed the Pirates in 1959 and never really knew the players or even saw the trade. You must have been smarter at 9 than me. 1960 , I followed every game and knew the players .. so I guess that was my first year of following the team. Went to all 3 WS games in Yankee Stadium.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:37 pm

05242C052E26410 wrote: I remember them all. the 1959 Frank Thomas trade just broke my heart. He was the favorite Bucco for a 9 yr old kid. And this trade was the only one that brought the Buccos a WS win. The other two were very successful in making the team quite competitive but they never won a WS.
It was certainly a bold move by Joe Brown. For most of the decade the Bucs had been a laughingstock and utilizing mostly younger players until finally having a solid, 2nd place season in 1958. But the '58 team fell short and Brown addressed the glaring need for a good hitting catcher (which Hank Foiles wasn't) and a LH starter (they had none in '58). Other than 1958, Hoak had never been a standout offensive player but he was needed to replace Thomas at 3B and at least would be a significant defensive upgrade there. So Brown went all in and traded his best player for three 30+ veterans and it turned out to be exactly what they needed. I think the biggest surprise was Hoak. When acquired he was a career .254/.336/.392 hitter. In his first 3 years as a Pirate his line was .291/.375/.431 in addition to being a very good defensive 3Bman and a fiery clubhouse leader.

And Brown wasn't done. After the 1959 season he tried to add power and focused on Kaline, Colavito, Killebrew and Maris. When he failed to add power (Brown nixed the deal for Maris that KC had approved), he added depth with Cimoli and Smith. And after Bennie Daniels failed as the 4th starter, he made the Mizell/Javier deal. And he picked up Labine in August. Brown was a great GM.

DemDog · Post by **DemDog** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:55 pm

705D50414657400003320 wrote: I remember them all. the 1959 Frank Thomas trade just broke my heart. He was the favorite Bucco for a 9 yr old kid. And this trade was the only one that brought the Buccos a WS win. The other two were very successful in making the team quite competitive but they never won a WS.
It was certainly a bold move by Joe Brown. For most of the decade the Bucs had been a laughingstock and utilizing mostly younger players until finally having a solid, 2nd place season in 1958. But the '58 team fell short and Brown addressed the glaring need for a good hitting catcher (which Hank Foiles wasn't) and a LH starter (they had none in '58). Other than 1958, Hoak had never been a standout offensive player but he was needed to replace Thomas at 3B and at least would be a significant defensive upgrade there. So Brown went all in and traded his best player for three 30+ veterans and it turned out to be exactly what they needed. I think the biggest surprise was Hoak. When acquired he was a career .254/.336/.392 hitter. In his first 3 years as a Pirate his line was .291/.375/.431 in addition to being a very good defensive 3Bman and a fiery clubhouse leader.

And Brown wasn't done. After the 1959 season he tried to add power and focused on Kaline, Colavito, Killebrew and Maris. When he failed to add power (Brown nixed the deal for Maris that KC had approved), he added depth with Cimoli and Smith. And after Bennie Daniels failed as the 4th starter, he made the Mizell/Javier deal. And he picked up Labine in August. Brown was a great GM.

First to clear up a senior mistake! I was 10 going on 11 when the Thomas deal was made. But still young enough to be upset about having my fav Bucco traded.

Now for Bobster, Joe Brown was in my opinion the best darn GM the Bucs have ever had. And the deal for Javier for Mizell was also one that upset my dad more than me. Javier was the heir apparent to Groat at SS and suddenly he was gone for a older lefty pitcher who didn't hurt the Bucs for sure. Finally I loved Cimoli, I remember The Gunner shouting "That'sa my boy Gino" when he got a big hit or made a fine play in the OF.

Those were the years my friends. Unfortunately the youngster of today will not be able to enjoy baseball like we did in our youth.

fjk090852-7 · Post by **fjk090852-7** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:32 am

I was 8 years old in 1960 so I can recall certain parts of the 1960 season, but I was not old enough to know that was a special season. My favorite player was Dick Groat who was MVP that year. I had just got home from school when Maz hit the historic home run. Kids today cannot enjoy the World Series games because of all those late night finishes.

SCBucco · Post by **SCBucco** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:15 am

565A5B0009000805021D07300 wrote: Even though this season has not been what we expected, I think many of us think the Bucs can again compete in 2018 with some upgrades to the roster. I can think of three trades the Bucs have made over the years which either brought them a World Championship or helped them make the postseason. The first trade in early 1959, which I was a little young to remember brought the Bucs Don Hoak, Harvey Haddix and Smokey Burgess for a very good player in Frank Thomas. The second trade was in late 1986 I believe when the Bucs moved Rick Rhoden for Doug Drabek, Brian Fisher, and Logan Easley. Drabek was the key player in this deal as he became the ace of the Bucs staff in the early 1990's. The final trade which helped the 1990-1992 clubs was the trading of the very popular Tony Pena to the Cards for Mike Lavaliere , Andy VanSlyke and Mike Dunne. I think in order for the Bucs to get back to the postseason they have to possibly think out of the box and trade possibly a player who may be part of their core such as Cole, Marte or Polanco who could bring back a few pieces to make this team challenge for the postseason again.

I hate to tell you, but none of Cole, Marte or Polanco will bring back a heist. Cole is an enigma. He isn't an ace. I question if he is a good two. If Cole isn't an enigma, Polanco sure as heck is. Looks the part, but is so very up and down. Marte still has questions to me.

Loved the deal with STL. That helped shape this organization without question. AVS is still one of my favs. As a matter of fact, when I was the SID at a Division I school in Texas, one of AVS's sons came in on an official visit. Coach had me talk to know as he knew I was a Pirate fan. He ended up going to a baseball power - Kansas (I kid about power).

ArnoldRothstein · Post by **ArnoldRothstein** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:29 am

I think that trades like these are still possible. Giles for Perez and Bay would have blown these away if Perez had kept anything like the form he showed in 2004.