To be fair Niese seemed like a pretty normal/middling pitcher before his disastrous stint with the Pirates. If we had gotten that I think it'd have been okay. I thought it was a reasonable if unexciting deal at the time and I won't pretend I saw something other than that.
Of course at the time I thought he was either Morton or Locke's replacement.
Two years later ...
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Two years later ...
74464A4A5E6C4F464B4E4146270 wrote: To be fair Niese seemed like a pretty normal/middling pitcher before his disastrous stint with the Pirates. If we had gotten that I think it'd have been okay. I thought it was a reasonable if unexciting deal at the time and I won't pretend I saw something other than that.
Of course at the time I thought he was either Morton or Locke's replacement.
That was assuming Niece would rebound from poor 2015. Niese wasn't in Mets plans for 2016. I didn't hatecdeal at time as I was giving Buds the benefit of the doubt that the team saw something in him like Volquez, Hap and AJ. Turns out they saw years of control.
Of course at the time I thought he was either Morton or Locke's replacement.
That was assuming Niece would rebound from poor 2015. Niese wasn't in Mets plans for 2016. I didn't hatecdeal at time as I was giving Buds the benefit of the doubt that the team saw something in him like Volquez, Hap and AJ. Turns out they saw years of control.
Two years later ...
6A474A5B5C4D5A1A19280 wrote: They thought Niese would be better. They thought Nicasio/Vogelsong could pitch until Taillon was called up.
What hurt even more, in my opinion, was Cole's and Liriano's bad pitching.
They had that bad losing streak before the deadline too, which kind of sealed the season and made them soft sellers.
Niese was one of those loser deals by NH. I'm stunned that was the best he could get for Walker. And then he turns around and gets even worse - Bastardo back for a failed Niese. The plan was horrid.
Follow the money. Niese was the best they thought they could get for the kind of money they were paying Walker. Consistent with how the org is run, they weren't going to take on additional salary. Similarly, Alvarez got 5.7 mil in his last season as a Pirate. He was non tendered because they didn't want to pay him more in arbitration since he couldn't catch a ball and hit for a low average with mucho Ks. So the team that needed an upgrade over a 1Bman who could do nothing but hit HRs settled for a less expensive catcher with little power who would have to learn to pay 1B on the job. Was this the best candidate for the vacant 1B job or just the cheapest? The 98 win team had 3 good starters in Cole, Liriano and Burnett/Napp. Morton and Locke were the weak links. Burnett retired and they chose not to increase payroll by retaining Happ. Niese was the replacement for Burnett/Happ. His history showed no chance to be as effective but his salary was in line with what they had paid Walker. Morton was thankfully let go. He had been getting 8 mil to be ineffective. Instead of increasing an already low payroll or at least finding someone worth that amount, they decided to replace him with 38 year old, struggling Vogelsong and his 2 mil salary. To no one's surprise, Vogelsong was ineffective. But they saved money. And despite Locke's chronic ineffectiveness, he was kept at 3 mil. Hard to find a good replacement for that amount. So Locke had to stay. Follow the money. NH's personnel moves are dictated by the bottom line.
There really is no other reasonable explanation. If NH is really that terrible at player evaluation my god we are in even worse trouble than I thought!
What hurt even more, in my opinion, was Cole's and Liriano's bad pitching.
They had that bad losing streak before the deadline too, which kind of sealed the season and made them soft sellers.
Niese was one of those loser deals by NH. I'm stunned that was the best he could get for Walker. And then he turns around and gets even worse - Bastardo back for a failed Niese. The plan was horrid.
Follow the money. Niese was the best they thought they could get for the kind of money they were paying Walker. Consistent with how the org is run, they weren't going to take on additional salary. Similarly, Alvarez got 5.7 mil in his last season as a Pirate. He was non tendered because they didn't want to pay him more in arbitration since he couldn't catch a ball and hit for a low average with mucho Ks. So the team that needed an upgrade over a 1Bman who could do nothing but hit HRs settled for a less expensive catcher with little power who would have to learn to pay 1B on the job. Was this the best candidate for the vacant 1B job or just the cheapest? The 98 win team had 3 good starters in Cole, Liriano and Burnett/Napp. Morton and Locke were the weak links. Burnett retired and they chose not to increase payroll by retaining Happ. Niese was the replacement for Burnett/Happ. His history showed no chance to be as effective but his salary was in line with what they had paid Walker. Morton was thankfully let go. He had been getting 8 mil to be ineffective. Instead of increasing an already low payroll or at least finding someone worth that amount, they decided to replace him with 38 year old, struggling Vogelsong and his 2 mil salary. To no one's surprise, Vogelsong was ineffective. But they saved money. And despite Locke's chronic ineffectiveness, he was kept at 3 mil. Hard to find a good replacement for that amount. So Locke had to stay. Follow the money. NH's personnel moves are dictated by the bottom line.
There really is no other reasonable explanation. If NH is really that terrible at player evaluation my god we are in even worse trouble than I thought!
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Bobster21
Two years later ...
6B5955554173505954515E59380 wrote: To be fair Niese seemed like a pretty normal/middling pitcher before his disastrous stint with the Pirates. If we had gotten that I think it'd have been okay. I thought it was a reasonable if unexciting deal at the time and I won't pretend I saw something other than that.
Of course at the time I thought he was either Morton or Locke's replacement.
I think that's a fair assessment. It was reasonable to assume they were getting a fairly average pitcher. In a vacuum that's seems alright. But not in the context of what they needed at that time. The 98 win team had fallen short, they were losing the outstanding combination of Burnett/Happ, Locke and Morton were below average and the Cubs were expected to compete with the Cardinals and Pirates in 2016. Everyone seemed relieved (rightfully so) when Morton was released. Niese looked like an upgrade over Morton. But then it became apparent that Niese was the downgrade replacement for Burnett/Happ, a 38 year old, struggling Vogelsong was obtained with the intention of replacing Morton (another downgrade), and the underwhelming Locke was retained. So the team that needed to add starting pitchers to compensate for the loss of Burnett/Happ and upgrade over Morton and Locke actually downgraded their rotation. Of course, the ensuing bad season by Cole and Liriano sealed the deal on a bad year.
Of course at the time I thought he was either Morton or Locke's replacement.
I think that's a fair assessment. It was reasonable to assume they were getting a fairly average pitcher. In a vacuum that's seems alright. But not in the context of what they needed at that time. The 98 win team had fallen short, they were losing the outstanding combination of Burnett/Happ, Locke and Morton were below average and the Cubs were expected to compete with the Cardinals and Pirates in 2016. Everyone seemed relieved (rightfully so) when Morton was released. Niese looked like an upgrade over Morton. But then it became apparent that Niese was the downgrade replacement for Burnett/Happ, a 38 year old, struggling Vogelsong was obtained with the intention of replacing Morton (another downgrade), and the underwhelming Locke was retained. So the team that needed to add starting pitchers to compensate for the loss of Burnett/Happ and upgrade over Morton and Locke actually downgraded their rotation. Of course, the ensuing bad season by Cole and Liriano sealed the deal on a bad year.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Two years later ...
Yes, one more (decent) SP would have totally changed my view on that offseason.
Two years later ...
I just wish they'd decide...in or out. Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well. I'd be more than happy to live with a few years of utter ineptitude, winning 50 games each year, if we could turn into the Cubs, Astros, or Nationals. But, average gets you more of that...average.
Personally, i think they should blow it up. Trade McCutchen, harrison, Mercer, Marte, Polanco, Cole, maybe even Taillon and Bell. If Kang somehow manages to get a visa, AND be competent to play at the MLB level, trade him, too. As personal finance guru Dave Ramsey likes to say, "Sell so much stuff the dog starts to hide." Blow it up. Start from scratch. This team really isn't that young anymore. They have a lot of weaknesses. I think we're closer to a 95 loss team next year than 95 wins.
Heck, I think we're closer to to a 95 loss team than an 85 win team.
Personally, i think they should blow it up. Trade McCutchen, harrison, Mercer, Marte, Polanco, Cole, maybe even Taillon and Bell. If Kang somehow manages to get a visa, AND be competent to play at the MLB level, trade him, too. As personal finance guru Dave Ramsey likes to say, "Sell so much stuff the dog starts to hide." Blow it up. Start from scratch. This team really isn't that young anymore. They have a lot of weaknesses. I think we're closer to a 95 loss team next year than 95 wins.
Heck, I think we're closer to to a 95 loss team than an 85 win team.
Two years later ...
4D4546716742656A040 wrote: I just wish they'd decide...in or out.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
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johnfluharty
Two years later ...
0626352829470 wrote: I just wish they'd decide...in or out.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
This is depressing because I am beginning to see how true it all is. The winning years? They added 10+ WAR for ~$1M. How likely is THAT to happen again? :-[
I think it's more a drive for 83, but I am thinking when they won 98 they were really trying for 83 and just got very lucky that the guys they added WAY outperformed expectations.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
This is depressing because I am beginning to see how true it all is. The winning years? They added 10+ WAR for ~$1M. How likely is THAT to happen again? :-[
I think it's more a drive for 83, but I am thinking when they won 98 they were really trying for 83 and just got very lucky that the guys they added WAY outperformed expectations.
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DemDog
Two years later ...
You had to bring up depressing wvbucco. Unfortunately I agree with how the team and the TBMTIBB has reacted since the 98 win season. Never, never in my 59 years of rooting for the Buccos have I seen such miserly spending not just on players but on scouting and the MiLB players in the system. Yes, Scrooge McNutting sure has snookered the fans to get behind the team with so many excuses except the one true one, he is too darned cheap to get the team over the top. And NH he places too much value on a top prospect and that too has filtered down to me and a lot of other fans.
Alas, I still have the Black Bears to root for and go see play next season. See some young kids working hard to learn and become the best players they can be at a price that is hard to beat.
Alas, I still have the Black Bears to root for and go see play next season. See some young kids working hard to learn and become the best players they can be at a price that is hard to beat.
Two years later ...
626760666E647D60697A7C71080 wrote: I just wish they'd decide...in or out.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
This is depressing because I am beginning to see how true it all is. The winning years? They added 10+ WAR for ~$1M. How likely is THAT to happen again? :-[
I think it's more a drive for 83, but I am thinking when they won 98 they were really trying for 83 and just got very lucky that the guys they added WAY outperformed expectations.
That's right.
Now try imagining those winning teams without NH being handed MVP Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Starling Marte, Tony Watson and even Jared Hughes.
Neal Huntington is a failure.
Oh, they've decided. The answer is...neither.
They aren't going to even try to do enough to win the division or make an attempt at a deep playoff run.
Nor are they willing to do what it takes to do a full rebuild, to take over from Huntington's failed rebuild.
They're quite content winning 70 something games and keeping the illusion going that if EVERY SINGLE THING GOES RIGHT, then they have a chance to sneak into the post season and lose in the wildcard game.
What they haven't yet realized is that with what's coming up from the minors (or perhaps what isn't coming up from the minors and the impending loss of Cutch and Cole, we could soon be winning 60 something games very soon.
Because right now, I feel like the Drive for 75 is alive and well.
Pretty much. It's mildly different in that there's a chance that the floor for NH's team is somewhat higher than the DL teams. So, it's probably more like the, "Drive for 78-79."
Don't believe any of the Dogknot propaganda.
This is depressing because I am beginning to see how true it all is. The winning years? They added 10+ WAR for ~$1M. How likely is THAT to happen again? :-[
I think it's more a drive for 83, but I am thinking when they won 98 they were really trying for 83 and just got very lucky that the guys they added WAY outperformed expectations.
That's right.
Now try imagining those winning teams without NH being handed MVP Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Starling Marte, Tony Watson and even Jared Hughes.
Neal Huntington is a failure.