The Pirates have increased payroll every year since McCutchen was called up except for two.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compe ... h-pirates/
They added players at every deadline from 2011-2016. Again, only two years as a Pirate they didn't add players.
You could be right about not wanting to answer media questions, but that usually comes with being the best player on the team. McCutchen, in my opinion, doesn't always hold back. He speaks his mind.
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
2D262E2227263D787E093028212626672A26490 wrote: The Pirates have increased payroll every year since McCutchen was called up except for two.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compe ... h-pirates/
They added players at every deadline from 2011-2016. Again, only two years as a Pirate they didn't add players.
You could be right about not wanting to answer media questions, but that usually comes with being the best player on the team. McCutchen, in my opinion, doesn't always hold back. He speaks his mind.
adding payroll every year but two is great. However, almost every other team has too. So relatively speaking by the chart you linked to the Pirates payroll (which was 21st in 2003) has never been higher than 24th since then. Cots also seems to have faith in Forbes estimate of team value since it lists it at 1.25 billion.
The Brewers are listed as worth 975 million and had 30th ranked payroll in 2016, yet somehow they were able to get all the way to 13th in 2010 and were still 15th in 2014 and 23rd in 2015.
Imagine what NH might have been able to do if the Bucs payroll went up to 18 or `19th in 2016 instead of 24th.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/compe ... h-pirates/
They added players at every deadline from 2011-2016. Again, only two years as a Pirate they didn't add players.
You could be right about not wanting to answer media questions, but that usually comes with being the best player on the team. McCutchen, in my opinion, doesn't always hold back. He speaks his mind.
adding payroll every year but two is great. However, almost every other team has too. So relatively speaking by the chart you linked to the Pirates payroll (which was 21st in 2003) has never been higher than 24th since then. Cots also seems to have faith in Forbes estimate of team value since it lists it at 1.25 billion.
The Brewers are listed as worth 975 million and had 30th ranked payroll in 2016, yet somehow they were able to get all the way to 13th in 2010 and were still 15th in 2014 and 23rd in 2015.
Imagine what NH might have been able to do if the Bucs payroll went up to 18 or `19th in 2016 instead of 24th.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
Sure. I understand that.
I was mostly responding to a few comments:
"will do very little to improve the team via financial investment prior to the season and at the deadline"
"ample evidence that the commitment is to the budget rather than to competing"
"will do just about anything to dump salary"
During McCutchen's time as a Pirate, these things were not a pattern. That's all.
I was mostly responding to a few comments:
"will do very little to improve the team via financial investment prior to the season and at the deadline"
"ample evidence that the commitment is to the budget rather than to competing"
"will do just about anything to dump salary"
During McCutchen's time as a Pirate, these things were not a pattern. That's all.
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
6D666E6267667D383E497068616666276A66090 wrote: Sure. I understand that.
I was mostly responding to a few comments:
"will do very little to improve the team via financial investment prior to the season and at the deadline"
"ample evidence that the commitment is to the budget rather than to competing"
"will do just about anything to dump salary"
During McCutchen's time as a Pirate, these things were not a pattern. That's all.
There is a pattern, if you use payroll rankings among teams instead of actual dollars (which seems to be the way to compare the Bucs to other teams) those statements are true.
I was mostly responding to a few comments:
"will do very little to improve the team via financial investment prior to the season and at the deadline"
"ample evidence that the commitment is to the budget rather than to competing"
"will do just about anything to dump salary"
During McCutchen's time as a Pirate, these things were not a pattern. That's all.
There is a pattern, if you use payroll rankings among teams instead of actual dollars (which seems to be the way to compare the Bucs to other teams) those statements are true.
-
GnatsEyelash
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
I think the issue comes back to the old "Drive for 75" theory that many espoused a decade ago. That the Pirates goal was not to win, but to not be so lousy as to inspire protests among the fan base.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
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Bobster21
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
5E77786D6A5C607C75786A71190 wrote: I think the issue comes back to the old "Drive for 75" theory that many espoused a decade ago. That the Pirates goal was not to win, but to not be so lousy as to inspire protests among the fan base.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I agree with all of that. I can't imagine Cutch wanting to sign an extension to stay. But they'll surely pick up his option so they can get something for him. Even if he did sign an extension, the Pirates have a history of trading players they extend so they don't have to pay the entire contract.
Nutting is waging a battle with the fans that he can't win. He needs a competitive team to draw fans but won't let NH acquire players who would raise the payroll more than the annual bottom 5 of the league total. If they're not going to be competitive he needs a star attraction and Cutch is the only one he's got. But to keep Cutch he has to pay him. I suspect they will announce they have picked up Cutch's option so that season ticket sales won't deteriorate. Then they'll trade him at mid season and try to sell the fan base on how exciting the prospects are that they acquire. If those prospects pan out, they will become part of team that won't spend enough to compete and will eventuality be traded when they become too expensive (by Nutting's standard) for another generation of prospects who will face the same future.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I agree with all of that. I can't imagine Cutch wanting to sign an extension to stay. But they'll surely pick up his option so they can get something for him. Even if he did sign an extension, the Pirates have a history of trading players they extend so they don't have to pay the entire contract.
Nutting is waging a battle with the fans that he can't win. He needs a competitive team to draw fans but won't let NH acquire players who would raise the payroll more than the annual bottom 5 of the league total. If they're not going to be competitive he needs a star attraction and Cutch is the only one he's got. But to keep Cutch he has to pay him. I suspect they will announce they have picked up Cutch's option so that season ticket sales won't deteriorate. Then they'll trade him at mid season and try to sell the fan base on how exciting the prospects are that they acquire. If those prospects pan out, they will become part of team that won't spend enough to compete and will eventuality be traded when they become too expensive (by Nutting's standard) for another generation of prospects who will face the same future.
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
5F727F6E69786F2F2C1D0 wrote: I think the issue comes back to the old "Drive for 75" theory that many espoused a decade ago. That the Pirates goal was not to win, but to not be so lousy as to inspire protests among the fan base.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I agree with all of that. I can't imagine Cutch wanting to sign an extension to stay. But they'll surely pick up his option so they can get something for him. Even if he did sign an extension, the Pirates have a history of trading players they extend so they don't have to pay the entire contract.
Nutting is waging a battle with the fans that he can't win. He needs a competitive team to draw fans but won't let NH acquire players who would raise the payroll more than the annual bottom 5 of the league total. If they're not going to be competitive he needs a star attraction and Cutch is the only one he's got. But to keep Cutch he has to pay him. I suspect they will announce they have picked up Cutch's option so that season ticket sales won't deteriorate. Then they'll trade him at mid season and try to sell the fan base on how exciting the prospects are that they acquire. If those prospects pan out, they will become part of team that won't spend enough to compete and will eventuality be traded when they become too expensive (by Nutting's standard) for another generation of prospects who will face the same future.
This is the same strategy that Calvin Griffith and Connie Mack would employ if they were owners today.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I agree with all of that. I can't imagine Cutch wanting to sign an extension to stay. But they'll surely pick up his option so they can get something for him. Even if he did sign an extension, the Pirates have a history of trading players they extend so they don't have to pay the entire contract.
Nutting is waging a battle with the fans that he can't win. He needs a competitive team to draw fans but won't let NH acquire players who would raise the payroll more than the annual bottom 5 of the league total. If they're not going to be competitive he needs a star attraction and Cutch is the only one he's got. But to keep Cutch he has to pay him. I suspect they will announce they have picked up Cutch's option so that season ticket sales won't deteriorate. Then they'll trade him at mid season and try to sell the fan base on how exciting the prospects are that they acquire. If those prospects pan out, they will become part of team that won't spend enough to compete and will eventuality be traded when they become too expensive (by Nutting's standard) for another generation of prospects who will face the same future.
This is the same strategy that Calvin Griffith and Connie Mack would employ if they were owners today.
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ArnoldRothstein
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
McCutchen's on field value is probably higher elsewhere than in Pittsburgh, is that correct? It seems like he profiles best as a pretty generic left fielder now, but PNC is one of the few parks that badly penalizes a generic left fielder.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
6B424D585F695549404D5F442C0 wrote: I think the issue comes back to the old "Drive for 75" theory that many espoused a decade ago. That the Pirates goal was not to win, but to not be so lousy as to inspire protests among the fan base.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I still think it will come down to money and security. There is a reason why players sign for long term deals. They like the guaranteed security. It could be a big risk saying no to an extension and entering free agency. With that said, someone will sign McCutchen for something. Players hate that ego hit too.
Moving Liriano wasn't a crime, but it was evident that they sent prospects along to get out from under the money. And I'm not blaming Huntington for this. He's got to live within a budget and made a calculation that he needed money, more than the prospects, for his team in 2017. But should he have to make that decision? None of the other GM's have to perform such contortions.
The situation presented itself again this year with Nicasio. Maybe Huntington botched it by not getting something earlier, but those optics would have been bad as well. Again, the Bucs' GM stands alone in deploying such a move. He will have an extra half mil to spend on talent next year...provided that money was not gobbled up extending himself and Hurdle.
The fans have figured out what is going on. They were told, "Show up and we will spend." Well, Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk and a poke in the eyes. They didn't say how much they would spend. Many thought they would spend enough. It's little solace that they didn't say how much and then underachieved.
My point is that, after awhile, players who have watched other clubs add at the deadline and become more potent, get tired of the annual drill. This year the Pirates, with McCutchen swinging a mighty bat, held on and thrived in June and July. And then watched the deadline pass with a whimper.
Only the Pirates gamble on a roster dependent on a middle of the order bat who might be more erratic...at least behind the wheel...than the dictator in the country to his north. When an outfielder gets suspended for PED usage early in the season, only the Pirates "wait and see" how it plays out. "Hey! Maybe we'll catch lightning in a bottle!" Silently spoken disclaimer: "and not have to spend any more money."
I believe Andrew McCutchen is the best player of this generation of Pirates by a country mile. Yet after he achieved MVP status, what did they do? They messed with him. They moved him to 2nd in the order. They moved him from CF to LF. And when he carried them into contention, against all odds, in the middle of this past summer? They did nothing.
To expect him to want to stay after the culmination of events in recent years?
The truth is if he wants to stay, then a title really doesn't mean that much to him, and I have tremendously overestimated his motivation to win.
I still think it will come down to money and security. There is a reason why players sign for long term deals. They like the guaranteed security. It could be a big risk saying no to an extension and entering free agency. With that said, someone will sign McCutchen for something. Players hate that ego hit too.
What do you do with McCutchen in the off-season?
not that they are always right but in the MLB Rumors chat today there was this exchange:
Danny
4:21 4/72 extension for cutch and bucs. Who says no.
Steve Adams
4:21 I can't see the Bucs paying that to extend him.
Danny
4:21 4/72 extension for cutch and bucs. Who says no.
Steve Adams
4:21 I can't see the Bucs paying that to extend him.