Good post, Speed.
I am sure we all feel your pain. I have seen the other teams in my hometown win, but I don't remember the Pirates (I was young).
In the past, I would defend the Pirates. I certainly wouldn't let someone from another city put down my team. I defended them, but I didn't really believe. I just wanted them to break .500. What a sad goal, but that was the hope in my eyes after 1992. I loved the 1997 season. Finally, a good season when I really understood the game and the workings of a winning team at an older age. But I also knew it was a fluke. But the McClatchy era started off good. Then it went sour real quick.
I don't compare that period to the current management team. It really isn't fair. They have shown how good drafting and international signings have built a contending team. Yeah, they still have a small budget but they still won. I saw this in 2012 and what the future was bringing.
It sucked last year. They lost some key players in that turn around and the replacements were misjudged. But that one down year doesn't have me concerned for the future. It is not a pattern (yet).
I currently think the 2017 team is better than the 2016 team. Taillon, Nova, Kuhl, and Bell have me thinking that way. Yes, I want more. I want another bullpen arm, a power bat on the bench, and maybe a starter.
Overall, I think this management team has done a great job considering the constraints financially. It sucks there isn't that much payroll flexibility, but the management team has won under those conditions before. This is why I defend them so much. making the playoffs three out of four years is huge. Once a team is in the playoffs, anything can happen that has been proven over and over.
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rucker59@gmail.com
They Never Stray
6F646C6065647F3A3C4B726A6364642568640B0 wrote: Good post, Speed.
I am sure we all feel your pain. I have seen the other teams in my hometown win, but I don't remember the Pirates (I was young).
In the past, I would defend the Pirates. I certainly wouldn't let someone from another city put down my team. I defended them, but I didn't really believe. I just wanted them to break .500. What a sad goal, but that was the hope in my eyes after 1992. I loved the 1997 season. Finally, a good season when I really understood the game and the workings of a winning team at an older age. But I also knew it was a fluke. But the McClatchy era started off good. Then it went sour real quick.
I don't compare that period to the current management team. It really isn't fair. They have shown how good drafting and international signings have built a contending team. Yeah, they still have a small budget but they still won. I saw this in 2012 and what the future was bringing.
It sucked last year. They lost some key players in that turn around and the replacements were misjudged. But that one down year doesn't have me concerned for the future. It is not a pattern (yet).
I currently think the 2017 team is better than the 2016 team. Taillon, Nova, Kuhl, and Bell have me thinking that way. Yes, I want more. I want another bullpen arm, a power bat on the bench, and maybe a starter.
Overall, I think this management team has done a great job considering the constraints financially. It sucks there isn't that much payroll flexibility, but the management team has won under those conditions before. This is why I defend them so much. making the playoffs three out of four years is huge. Once a team is in the playoffs, anything can happen that has been proven over and over.
Maybe another mis-perception among fans:
I bet the vast majority of posters would agree with you on Neal. Frank, maybe. Generally, those guys have done an amazing job. JOB. But it's less certain they have "shot straight" with the fan base. Even this, I think they are being good and faithful employees, maybe they were even "misled" from the beginning by Nutting. But whoever holds ultimate responsibility, it is pretty much undeniable that the FO has NOT been truthful to the fan base. They just haven't. That one reality is what I think Speedy's OP was about and is what is really upsetting to some fans.
Great job working with peanuts. Great job, unfortunately, misleading fans and also shifting blame to the fans. The FO has not upheld their word. If they had, maybe there would be a WS trophy at PNC. Then we could say "the plan worked", but the plan is/was only about 1/2 complete and there is no evidence they really plan to finish. False hope, a lot of years of false hope created by the FO. That was the point of the OP.
I am sure we all feel your pain. I have seen the other teams in my hometown win, but I don't remember the Pirates (I was young).
In the past, I would defend the Pirates. I certainly wouldn't let someone from another city put down my team. I defended them, but I didn't really believe. I just wanted them to break .500. What a sad goal, but that was the hope in my eyes after 1992. I loved the 1997 season. Finally, a good season when I really understood the game and the workings of a winning team at an older age. But I also knew it was a fluke. But the McClatchy era started off good. Then it went sour real quick.
I don't compare that period to the current management team. It really isn't fair. They have shown how good drafting and international signings have built a contending team. Yeah, they still have a small budget but they still won. I saw this in 2012 and what the future was bringing.
It sucked last year. They lost some key players in that turn around and the replacements were misjudged. But that one down year doesn't have me concerned for the future. It is not a pattern (yet).
I currently think the 2017 team is better than the 2016 team. Taillon, Nova, Kuhl, and Bell have me thinking that way. Yes, I want more. I want another bullpen arm, a power bat on the bench, and maybe a starter.
Overall, I think this management team has done a great job considering the constraints financially. It sucks there isn't that much payroll flexibility, but the management team has won under those conditions before. This is why I defend them so much. making the playoffs three out of four years is huge. Once a team is in the playoffs, anything can happen that has been proven over and over.
Maybe another mis-perception among fans:
I bet the vast majority of posters would agree with you on Neal. Frank, maybe. Generally, those guys have done an amazing job. JOB. But it's less certain they have "shot straight" with the fan base. Even this, I think they are being good and faithful employees, maybe they were even "misled" from the beginning by Nutting. But whoever holds ultimate responsibility, it is pretty much undeniable that the FO has NOT been truthful to the fan base. They just haven't. That one reality is what I think Speedy's OP was about and is what is really upsetting to some fans.
Great job working with peanuts. Great job, unfortunately, misleading fans and also shifting blame to the fans. The FO has not upheld their word. If they had, maybe there would be a WS trophy at PNC. Then we could say "the plan worked", but the plan is/was only about 1/2 complete and there is no evidence they really plan to finish. False hope, a lot of years of false hope created by the FO. That was the point of the OP.
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Speedloader88
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They Never Stray
Amen VaPirate!!! Preach
They Never Stray
6A61696560617A3F394E776F666161206D610E0 wrote: Good post, Speed.
I am sure we all feel your pain. I have seen the other teams in my hometown win, but I don't remember the Pirates (I was young).
In the past, I would defend the Pirates. I certainly wouldn't let someone from another city put down my team. I defended them, but I didn't really believe. I just wanted them to break .500. What a sad goal, but that was the hope in my eyes after 1992. I loved the 1997 season. Finally, a good season when I really understood the game and the workings of a winning team at an older age. But I also knew it was a fluke. But the McClatchy era started off good. Then it went sour real quick.
I don't compare that period to the current management team. It really isn't fair. They have shown how good drafting and international signings have built a contending team. Yeah, they still have a small budget but they still won. I saw this in 2012 and what the future was bringing.
It sucked last year. They lost some key players in that turn around and the replacements were misjudged. But that one down year doesn't have me concerned for the future. It is not a pattern (yet).
I currently think the 2017 team is better than the 2016 team. Taillon, Nova, Kuhl, and Bell have me thinking that way. Yes, I want more. I want another bullpen arm, a power bat on the bench, and maybe a starter.
Overall, I think this management team has done a great job considering the constraints financially. It sucks there isn't that much payroll flexibility, but the management team has won under those conditions before. This is why I defend them so much. making the playoffs three out of four years is huge. Once a team is in the playoffs, anything can happen that has been proven over and over.
C'mon sports is a what have you done for me lately scenario. I understand 3 of 4 years they made the playoffs, but they didn't "win" anything. There are no participation trophies. This organization was set up to improve upon a 98 win team and did nothing. I know they couldn't predict down years from Cole, Cutch etc. That should never change the strategy of trying to improve the team. I have been a fan of this team since 1979, I was 6 years old when a friend showed my all his Pirates memorabilia and I just got hooked. I lived through the 20 year stretch and rooted for individual players more so than the team. I watched Giles, ARAM, Kendall, Bonds, Bonilla etc. all leave. I hoped all the prospects would arrive and help. We as fans should expect them to do more. I don't understand why you don't capitalize on "winning." The fans have been showing up to support them. Why not go after what is needed? Instead we will sit back and pray Glasnow, Brault, Williams are ready. I hope they are, I don't want to see another loosing streak.
I am sure we all feel your pain. I have seen the other teams in my hometown win, but I don't remember the Pirates (I was young).
In the past, I would defend the Pirates. I certainly wouldn't let someone from another city put down my team. I defended them, but I didn't really believe. I just wanted them to break .500. What a sad goal, but that was the hope in my eyes after 1992. I loved the 1997 season. Finally, a good season when I really understood the game and the workings of a winning team at an older age. But I also knew it was a fluke. But the McClatchy era started off good. Then it went sour real quick.
I don't compare that period to the current management team. It really isn't fair. They have shown how good drafting and international signings have built a contending team. Yeah, they still have a small budget but they still won. I saw this in 2012 and what the future was bringing.
It sucked last year. They lost some key players in that turn around and the replacements were misjudged. But that one down year doesn't have me concerned for the future. It is not a pattern (yet).
I currently think the 2017 team is better than the 2016 team. Taillon, Nova, Kuhl, and Bell have me thinking that way. Yes, I want more. I want another bullpen arm, a power bat on the bench, and maybe a starter.
Overall, I think this management team has done a great job considering the constraints financially. It sucks there isn't that much payroll flexibility, but the management team has won under those conditions before. This is why I defend them so much. making the playoffs three out of four years is huge. Once a team is in the playoffs, anything can happen that has been proven over and over.
C'mon sports is a what have you done for me lately scenario. I understand 3 of 4 years they made the playoffs, but they didn't "win" anything. There are no participation trophies. This organization was set up to improve upon a 98 win team and did nothing. I know they couldn't predict down years from Cole, Cutch etc. That should never change the strategy of trying to improve the team. I have been a fan of this team since 1979, I was 6 years old when a friend showed my all his Pirates memorabilia and I just got hooked. I lived through the 20 year stretch and rooted for individual players more so than the team. I watched Giles, ARAM, Kendall, Bonds, Bonilla etc. all leave. I hoped all the prospects would arrive and help. We as fans should expect them to do more. I don't understand why you don't capitalize on "winning." The fans have been showing up to support them. Why not go after what is needed? Instead we will sit back and pray Glasnow, Brault, Williams are ready. I hope they are, I don't want to see another loosing streak.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
They Never Stray
They are still in that window of "what have you done for me lately". Their strategy was wrong going into 2016. But 98 wins is also very hard to improve on (ask St Louis, Kansas City). Not an excuse, just pointing it out.
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good.
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good.
They Never Stray
4B4C5A525C4B0C00795E54585055175A5654390 wrote:
Some of us see patterns of behavior from the Pirate organization that connect dots of logic. Some never discern the connections.
Some also see how this plan has worked three out of four years. Some also don't categorize what happened over the whole 20 years of losing with the current management team (Ramirez, Bell).
I just realized the problem among fans: totally different perceptions.
You say the plan "worked".
I say the plan was "working" but has ultimately not worked (because of the dots in the matrix).
Ah Va! That is an astute observation which reminds me of the lesson of the fable of the man who invented his own wings for flying.
A certain man invented a set of canvas wings which he was sure would allow him to fly like a bird. As he was so convinced that the wings would work he asked a friend to accompany him as a witness so that he would have proof of his inventive genius. The man and his friend proceeded to the top of Mt Hubris where the inventor was to jump from the cliff precipace into the air and begin his flight.
As the the man neared the edge of the cliff wearing his homemade wings he looked back at his friend and asked him to shout to him as he watched to let him know how he thought he was doing. Without further ado the man leaped off the cliff and began to rapidly flap his wing adorned arms. As he moved through the air he looked back up to his friend on the top of the cliff and yelled "See I'm flying, I'm flying!! His friend waited a moment and then shouted down to him "Actually from up here it looks like you're not so much flying as falling."
And so as Va pointed out it's all about perception. As the man with the wings eventually found out, you may think you're flying if you aren't looking at the ground coming up rapidly to meet you.
Some of us see patterns of behavior from the Pirate organization that connect dots of logic. Some never discern the connections.
Some also see how this plan has worked three out of four years. Some also don't categorize what happened over the whole 20 years of losing with the current management team (Ramirez, Bell).
I just realized the problem among fans: totally different perceptions.
You say the plan "worked".
I say the plan was "working" but has ultimately not worked (because of the dots in the matrix).
Ah Va! That is an astute observation which reminds me of the lesson of the fable of the man who invented his own wings for flying.
A certain man invented a set of canvas wings which he was sure would allow him to fly like a bird. As he was so convinced that the wings would work he asked a friend to accompany him as a witness so that he would have proof of his inventive genius. The man and his friend proceeded to the top of Mt Hubris where the inventor was to jump from the cliff precipace into the air and begin his flight.
As the the man neared the edge of the cliff wearing his homemade wings he looked back at his friend and asked him to shout to him as he watched to let him know how he thought he was doing. Without further ado the man leaped off the cliff and began to rapidly flap his wing adorned arms. As he moved through the air he looked back up to his friend on the top of the cliff and yelled "See I'm flying, I'm flying!! His friend waited a moment and then shouted down to him "Actually from up here it looks like you're not so much flying as falling."
And so as Va pointed out it's all about perception. As the man with the wings eventually found out, you may think you're flying if you aren't looking at the ground coming up rapidly to meet you.
They Never Stray
515A525E5B5A410402754C545D5A5A1B565A350 wrote: They are still in that window of "what have you done for me lately". Their strategy was wrong going into 2016. But 98 wins is also very hard to improve on (ask St Louis, Kansas City). Not an excuse, just pointing it out.
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good. You improve on 98 wins by winning it all!
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good. You improve on 98 wins by winning it all!
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rucker59@gmail.com
They Never Stray
7E7F6475632324100 wrote: They are still in that window of "what have you done for me lately". Their strategy was wrong going into 2016. But 98 wins is also very hard to improve on (ask St Louis, Kansas City). Not an excuse, just pointing it out.
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good. You improve on 98 wins by winning it all!
This is a great reply. Very simple - until you win it all you're not good enough. Simple. As. That.
I also don't believe the Pirates lie to the fans as much as others. I understand their "media speech" and assume them to be vague, just like every other team.
I believe they were in on Price and I believe they are serious about Quintana. I don't recall many top free agent they were serious on. (the examples in this thread)
I personally think people want more, which is expected, and don't like the front office in general (Nutting more than everyone). So, every move is scrutinized or way over blown. People will believe what they want. I just don't like they believe the bad more than the good. You improve on 98 wins by winning it all!
This is a great reply. Very simple - until you win it all you're not good enough. Simple. As. That.
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rucker59@gmail.com
They Never Stray
5571656D68040 wrote:
Some of us see patterns of behavior from the Pirate organization that connect dots of logic. Some never discern the connections.
Some also see how this plan has worked three out of four years. Some also don't categorize what happened over the whole 20 years of losing with the current management team (Ramirez, Bell).
I just realized the problem among fans: totally different perceptions.
You say the plan "worked".
I say the plan was "working" but has ultimately not worked (because of the dots in the matrix).
Ah Va! That is an astute observation which reminds me of the lesson of the fable of the man who invented his own wings for flying.
A certain man invented a set of canvas wings which he was sure would allow him to fly like a bird. As he was so convinced that the wings would work he asked a friend to accompany him as a witness so that he would have proof of his inventive genius. The man and his friend proceeded to the top of Mt Hubris where the inventor was to jump from the cliff precipace into the air and begin his flight.
As the the man neared the edge of the cliff wearing his homemade wings he looked back at his friend and asked him to shout to him as he watched to let him know how he thought he was doing. Without further ado the man leaped off the cliff and began to rapidly flap his wing adorned arms. As he moved through the air he looked back up to his friend on the top of the cliff and yelled "See I'm flying, I'm flying!! His friend waited a moment and then shouted down to him "Actually from up here it looks like you're not so much flying as falling."
And so as Va pointed out it's all about perception. As the man with the wings eventually found out, you may think you're flying if you aren't looking at the ground coming up rapidly to meet you.
The 'ol "look I'm flying" straight down perspective!
How about a real life example: my son wants to go to a certain college. This college is hard to get into. My son will soon take the SAT. If he does well he will be closer to that college but he won't be in, not by a long shot. I plan to talk to him IF his SAT score is high enough - "do you really want to go to ____? Then you've got a shot, but unless you do this, this and this, your shot is really pretty small. Everyone that wants into this school is going to be doing all they can to get in. Will you?"
The Pirates response has been: "I've got a chance, that's good enough" instead of "I'm going to whatever I can to succeed." They have not done everything they can do to succeed. They're riding on a good start and telling us it's "good enough". Just a fact.
And I'm not holding them to what the Yankees could do to succeed, I'm talking about what THE PIRATES could do. They absolutely could do more.
My bet is Mr Nutting holds his employees and lawyers and CPAs to a higher standard then he holds himself as an owner of a baseball team.
Some of us see patterns of behavior from the Pirate organization that connect dots of logic. Some never discern the connections.
Some also see how this plan has worked three out of four years. Some also don't categorize what happened over the whole 20 years of losing with the current management team (Ramirez, Bell).
I just realized the problem among fans: totally different perceptions.
You say the plan "worked".
I say the plan was "working" but has ultimately not worked (because of the dots in the matrix).
Ah Va! That is an astute observation which reminds me of the lesson of the fable of the man who invented his own wings for flying.
A certain man invented a set of canvas wings which he was sure would allow him to fly like a bird. As he was so convinced that the wings would work he asked a friend to accompany him as a witness so that he would have proof of his inventive genius. The man and his friend proceeded to the top of Mt Hubris where the inventor was to jump from the cliff precipace into the air and begin his flight.
As the the man neared the edge of the cliff wearing his homemade wings he looked back at his friend and asked him to shout to him as he watched to let him know how he thought he was doing. Without further ado the man leaped off the cliff and began to rapidly flap his wing adorned arms. As he moved through the air he looked back up to his friend on the top of the cliff and yelled "See I'm flying, I'm flying!! His friend waited a moment and then shouted down to him "Actually from up here it looks like you're not so much flying as falling."
And so as Va pointed out it's all about perception. As the man with the wings eventually found out, you may think you're flying if you aren't looking at the ground coming up rapidly to meet you.
The 'ol "look I'm flying" straight down perspective!
How about a real life example: my son wants to go to a certain college. This college is hard to get into. My son will soon take the SAT. If he does well he will be closer to that college but he won't be in, not by a long shot. I plan to talk to him IF his SAT score is high enough - "do you really want to go to ____? Then you've got a shot, but unless you do this, this and this, your shot is really pretty small. Everyone that wants into this school is going to be doing all they can to get in. Will you?"
The Pirates response has been: "I've got a chance, that's good enough" instead of "I'm going to whatever I can to succeed." They have not done everything they can do to succeed. They're riding on a good start and telling us it's "good enough". Just a fact.
And I'm not holding them to what the Yankees could do to succeed, I'm talking about what THE PIRATES could do. They absolutely could do more.
My bet is Mr Nutting holds his employees and lawyers and CPAs to a higher standard then he holds himself as an owner of a baseball team.