IF...Clint was to be fired
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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ArnoldRothstein
IF...Clint was to be fired
I think they might have to make a change in direction. I think they thought that they were going to be monsters at player development, and that was going to let them be competitive all the time. I think they have to adjust to the need to tear down and rebuild. Hurdle ' s not my guy, but I'm not sure why he or Huntington would go because they pursue a new strategy.
IF...Clint was to be fired
1F0226242A4F0 wrote: Agree completely with the above post.
There is no way those two are getting fired. If they did, the tailspin that would have to precede that would be epic. They are a few games under .500 and playing solid baseball despite 4.5 regulars being out of the lineup and facing the schedule they've faced so far.
The angst that exists around the Pirates right now would make one think they were in last place in all of baseball.
I don't think it is likely that either gets fired unless there is total collapse this season. However, both Clint and NH have contract options for 2018 (if I remember correctly). Clint is going to turn 60 this summer. How much longer does he want to manage? Some guys like to keep going and others don't. Larussa managed at 66. The Bucs need to decide if they want Hurdle here in 2019 and 2020 so that can be a factor in deciding whether to keep him or not. Tony Pena is same age as Clint.
There is no way those two are getting fired. If they did, the tailspin that would have to precede that would be epic. They are a few games under .500 and playing solid baseball despite 4.5 regulars being out of the lineup and facing the schedule they've faced so far.
The angst that exists around the Pirates right now would make one think they were in last place in all of baseball.
I don't think it is likely that either gets fired unless there is total collapse this season. However, both Clint and NH have contract options for 2018 (if I remember correctly). Clint is going to turn 60 this summer. How much longer does he want to manage? Some guys like to keep going and others don't. Larussa managed at 66. The Bucs need to decide if they want Hurdle here in 2019 and 2020 so that can be a factor in deciding whether to keep him or not. Tony Pena is same age as Clint.
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CarolinaBucco
IF...Clint was to be fired
I think the blame starts at the top. Neal is not stupid. He knows last year's team had a losing record and finished 25 games behind the Cubs, might as well have been 50 games the gap was so wide.
So he had to know you cannot just bring back essentially the same team and expect different results. And of course it wasn't even the same team ... it's a worse team, with a bench that is significantly weaker and the overall team completely void of power.
Neal HAD to know that. But his hands were tied and he had severe limitations on what he could do budget-wise.
So what I'm saying is that even with Kang and Marte this team would only be marginally better than what it is now. The team as currently constituted has serious issues. Even with Kang and Marte the club would still have issues.
With them, I think we are an 81-81 kind of team.
Without them, I think we are looking at 71-91.
Point is, even with them, we weren't going to be very good.
So he had to know you cannot just bring back essentially the same team and expect different results. And of course it wasn't even the same team ... it's a worse team, with a bench that is significantly weaker and the overall team completely void of power.
Neal HAD to know that. But his hands were tied and he had severe limitations on what he could do budget-wise.
So what I'm saying is that even with Kang and Marte this team would only be marginally better than what it is now. The team as currently constituted has serious issues. Even with Kang and Marte the club would still have issues.
With them, I think we are an 81-81 kind of team.
Without them, I think we are looking at 71-91.
Point is, even with them, we weren't going to be very good.
IF...Clint was to be fired
755744595A5F58577443555559360 wrote: I think the blame starts at the top. Neal is not stupid. He knows last year's team had a losing record and finished 25 games behind the Cubs, might as well have been 50 games the gap was so wide.
So he had to know you cannot just bring back essentially the same team and expect different results. And of course it wasn't even the same team ... it's a worse team, with a bench that is significantly weaker and the overall team completely void of power.
Neal HAD to know that. But his hands were tied and he had severe limitations on what he could do budget-wise.
So what I'm saying is that even with Kang and Marte this team would only be marginally better than what it is now. The team as currently constituted has serious issues. Even with Kang and Marte the club would still have issues.
With them, I think we are an 81-81 kind of team.
Without them, I think we are looking at 71-91.
Point is, even with them, we weren't going to be very good.
I would call 71-91 a collapse and after last year that would call for some sort of change in manager and or gm. To go from 98 wins to 71 and most likely still have a lot of questions about 2018 would be risky. A 71-91 year would come close to losing all the good feelings fans had in 2015. Still there is time to rally. Losing 6 out of 7 to Reds is hopefully a bad streak and not an omen.
So he had to know you cannot just bring back essentially the same team and expect different results. And of course it wasn't even the same team ... it's a worse team, with a bench that is significantly weaker and the overall team completely void of power.
Neal HAD to know that. But his hands were tied and he had severe limitations on what he could do budget-wise.
So what I'm saying is that even with Kang and Marte this team would only be marginally better than what it is now. The team as currently constituted has serious issues. Even with Kang and Marte the club would still have issues.
With them, I think we are an 81-81 kind of team.
Without them, I think we are looking at 71-91.
Point is, even with them, we weren't going to be very good.
I would call 71-91 a collapse and after last year that would call for some sort of change in manager and or gm. To go from 98 wins to 71 and most likely still have a lot of questions about 2018 would be risky. A 71-91 year would come close to losing all the good feelings fans had in 2015. Still there is time to rally. Losing 6 out of 7 to Reds is hopefully a bad streak and not an omen.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
IF...Clint was to be fired
The problem is that if people wanted heads to roll, there is the Kang and Marte excuse. Will that excuse save jobs or will it be counted as a season ending injury?
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rucker59@gmail.com
IF...Clint was to be fired
576478797A724479627E6562737F78160 wrote: I think they might have to make a change in direction. I think they thought that they were going to be monsters at player development, and that was going to let them be competitive all the time. I think they have to adjust to the need to tear down and rebuild. Hurdle ' s not my guy, but I'm not sure why he or Huntington would go because they pursue a new strategy.
For me, you nailed the issue - execution of their (Neil and Clint's) own plan. Personally I think Neil has done a very good job but he can't deliver what he may have "promised" Nutting: Neil's trying to manage so that the team is always in the race for a playoff spot (rather than manage cycles). It's a unique strategy but Neil will get the blame if the Pirates are seen as drifting away from their own goal of competitiveness.
I don't know if the plan is doable longterm in any event, but Unfortunately for Neil, his management of his assets is questionable at best: in a world where he needs to execute to perfection to maintain competitiveness, some of his trades have been underwhelming and the use of prospects can be questioned.
As I said, I think Neil's a good GM and has tried to execute a plan that Nutting likes, but now I don't think the plan can work long term unless the GM is pretty much perfect in all trades, extensions, and prospect managenent.
Too bad - Neil deserved the chance to finish the 2015 team which he built (one of the really good jobs done by a GM).
For me, you nailed the issue - execution of their (Neil and Clint's) own plan. Personally I think Neil has done a very good job but he can't deliver what he may have "promised" Nutting: Neil's trying to manage so that the team is always in the race for a playoff spot (rather than manage cycles). It's a unique strategy but Neil will get the blame if the Pirates are seen as drifting away from their own goal of competitiveness.
I don't know if the plan is doable longterm in any event, but Unfortunately for Neil, his management of his assets is questionable at best: in a world where he needs to execute to perfection to maintain competitiveness, some of his trades have been underwhelming and the use of prospects can be questioned.
As I said, I think Neil's a good GM and has tried to execute a plan that Nutting likes, but now I don't think the plan can work long term unless the GM is pretty much perfect in all trades, extensions, and prospect managenent.
Too bad - Neil deserved the chance to finish the 2015 team which he built (one of the really good jobs done by a GM).
IF...Clint was to be fired
FWIW I read on another site (warning: this is unverified info!) that during Hurdle's tenure as manager of the Pirates the team has exceeded the number of wins expected based on some sort of statistical analysis. If that is true then the criticism he receives as a baseball strategist may be valid but he has other qualities as a manager that aren't as clear cut which more than compensate.
Hurdle being fired is probably a longshot for a couple of reasons. First he has towed the company line. Not complained about lack of spending on payroll or even hinted that he's forced to manage for a penny-pinching franchise. Secondly he's had some legit success in the fairly recent past. The fact that he's managing a team currently composed of a plethora of AAA replacement players and without the team's two top offensive weapons certainly gives him reasons if not excuses for the team's relatively poor start in 2017.
Huntington is another matter. He's proven himself to be a pretty good GM. I can see a situation where he'd like to have a chance to prove himself under ownership that has deeper pockets than the Pirates. If I were NH I'd be looking for that "next" job. If nothing comes up then of course I'd accept an extension from the Pirates- job security has advantages too. Nutting would be a fool to fire a GM that has done a good job of putting together a competitive "enough" team on the mandated shoestring budget.
Hurdle being fired is probably a longshot for a couple of reasons. First he has towed the company line. Not complained about lack of spending on payroll or even hinted that he's forced to manage for a penny-pinching franchise. Secondly he's had some legit success in the fairly recent past. The fact that he's managing a team currently composed of a plethora of AAA replacement players and without the team's two top offensive weapons certainly gives him reasons if not excuses for the team's relatively poor start in 2017.
Huntington is another matter. He's proven himself to be a pretty good GM. I can see a situation where he'd like to have a chance to prove himself under ownership that has deeper pockets than the Pirates. If I were NH I'd be looking for that "next" job. If nothing comes up then of course I'd accept an extension from the Pirates- job security has advantages too. Nutting would be a fool to fire a GM that has done a good job of putting together a competitive "enough" team on the mandated shoestring budget.
IF...Clint was to be fired
Another factor in Hurdle's favor is that the players seem to like him and like playing for him. If there were discord, I could see his situation being more tenuous.
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Bobster21
IF...Clint was to be fired
113521292C400 wrote: FWIW I read on another site (warning: this is unverified info!) that during Hurdle's tenure as manager of the Pirates the team has exceeded the number of wins expected based on some sort of statistical analysis. If that is true then the criticism he receives as a baseball strategist may be valid but he has other qualities as a manager that aren't as clear cut which more than compensate.
Hurdle being fired is probably a longshot for a couple of reasons. First he has towed the company line. Not complained about lack of spending on payroll or even hinted that he's forced to manage for a penny-pinching franchise. Secondly he's had some legit success in the fairly recent past. The fact that he's managing a team currently composed of a plethora of AAA replacement players and without the team's two top offensive weapons certainly gives him reasons if not excuses for the team's relatively poor start in 2017.
Huntington is another matter. He's proven himself to be a pretty good GM. I can see a situation where he'd like to have a chance to prove himself under ownership that has deeper pockets than the Pirates. If I were NH I'd be looking for that "next" job. If nothing comes up then of course I'd accept an extension from the Pirates- job security has advantages too. Nutting would be a fool to fire a GM that has done a good job of putting together a competitive "enough" team on the mandated shoestring budget.
That's about how I see it too. I believe the Nutting regime had the best of intentions and had a plan they thought would take the Pirates out of 20 years of doldrums and make them competitive. And it worked. I also think they were sincere at the time they said they would increase spending when the time was right. But when that time arrived I think Nutting realized the cost of remaining competitive against the Cubs, Cards and the best of the rest was higher than he was willing to go. So I believe the plan has changed to having NH do the best he can each year on a small budget and if he is slick enough with his drafts and dumpster dives he might still keep the Bucs in the hunt most years. But obviously he will not have the resources to fill holes with impact players. And Clint's job is to do the best he can with what he's got (altho I think that's asking more of Clint than he's capable of).
I doubt Nutting will make changes because it would signify a failure of his plan and require an unpopular restart. He wants the fan base to always believe that bad seasons are due to extenuating circumstances and the Pirates are just "so close" to contending next year so be patient and buy tickets. He probably knows he won't find a GM better than NH at trying to put a team together on a shoestring budget and trying a new GM might result in an even worse effort with the little money Nutting provides. Hurdle can be replaced easily as he adds little or nothing to the team's chances of success. But he was brought in as part of "the plan" and I don't think mgt wants to suggests a flawed plan. And even a great manager will not make much of a difference if the talent isn't there.
Hurdle being fired is probably a longshot for a couple of reasons. First he has towed the company line. Not complained about lack of spending on payroll or even hinted that he's forced to manage for a penny-pinching franchise. Secondly he's had some legit success in the fairly recent past. The fact that he's managing a team currently composed of a plethora of AAA replacement players and without the team's two top offensive weapons certainly gives him reasons if not excuses for the team's relatively poor start in 2017.
Huntington is another matter. He's proven himself to be a pretty good GM. I can see a situation where he'd like to have a chance to prove himself under ownership that has deeper pockets than the Pirates. If I were NH I'd be looking for that "next" job. If nothing comes up then of course I'd accept an extension from the Pirates- job security has advantages too. Nutting would be a fool to fire a GM that has done a good job of putting together a competitive "enough" team on the mandated shoestring budget.
That's about how I see it too. I believe the Nutting regime had the best of intentions and had a plan they thought would take the Pirates out of 20 years of doldrums and make them competitive. And it worked. I also think they were sincere at the time they said they would increase spending when the time was right. But when that time arrived I think Nutting realized the cost of remaining competitive against the Cubs, Cards and the best of the rest was higher than he was willing to go. So I believe the plan has changed to having NH do the best he can each year on a small budget and if he is slick enough with his drafts and dumpster dives he might still keep the Bucs in the hunt most years. But obviously he will not have the resources to fill holes with impact players. And Clint's job is to do the best he can with what he's got (altho I think that's asking more of Clint than he's capable of).
I doubt Nutting will make changes because it would signify a failure of his plan and require an unpopular restart. He wants the fan base to always believe that bad seasons are due to extenuating circumstances and the Pirates are just "so close" to contending next year so be patient and buy tickets. He probably knows he won't find a GM better than NH at trying to put a team together on a shoestring budget and trying a new GM might result in an even worse effort with the little money Nutting provides. Hurdle can be replaced easily as he adds little or nothing to the team's chances of success. But he was brought in as part of "the plan" and I don't think mgt wants to suggests a flawed plan. And even a great manager will not make much of a difference if the talent isn't there.
IF...Clint was to be fired
505B535F5A5B400503744D555C5B5B1A575B340 wrote: The problem is that if people wanted heads to roll, there is the Kang and Marte excuse. Will that excuse save jobs or will it be counted as a season ending injury?
It should not be treated as a season-ending injury. I don't treat it as an excuse. Even with them, this roster was flawed.
It should not be treated as a season-ending injury. I don't treat it as an excuse. Even with them, this roster was flawed.