1D0D0C3B2D2D214E0 wrote: McCutchen, Harrison, Marte were all All Stars. Bell will probably be the Rookie of the Year runner up. Polanco will be 26 and can definitely improve on his 2016 season. Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang can be a top 3B if he makes it back. Mercer is fine. Freese, Rodriguez, and Diaz on the bench (Diaz could play a lot). Meadows is a top prospect in all of baseball.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
According to you, the Pirates have four players that other teams would want? Come on, be real.
Most of these guys did win. It's sad that you only focus on the negatives than the positives. You only see 2016 & 2017.
What is your solution? You only knock ideas (mostly mine). Would you really trade everyone except Rivero, Bell, Harrison, and maybe Taillon?
Sick and tired
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Sick and tired
4A41494540415A1F196E574F464141004D412E0 wrote: McCutchen, Harrison, Marte were all All Stars. Bell will probably be the Rookie of the Year runner up. Polanco will be 26 and can definitely improve on his 2016 season. Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang can be a top 3B if he makes it back. Mercer is fine. Freese, Rodriguez, and Diaz on the bench (Diaz could play a lot). Meadows is a top prospect in all of baseball.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
According to you, the Pirates have four players that other teams would want? Come on, be real.
Most of these guys did win. It's sad that you only focus on the negatives than the positives. You only see 2016 & 2017.
What is your solution? You only knock ideas (mostly mine). Would you really trade everyone except Rivero, Bell, Harrison, and maybe Taillon?
I knock your ideas because I feel they warrant knocking at times to be honest. There is little dose of reality in many of your ideas. You seem to be fine with reclamation projects like our GM. You overvalue players on this roster like NH does. Your 17 names you mentioned suggest this. Remind me, what our record is. Remind me ... how we are playing.
Polanco would return something. Something big? I doubt it. You would be trading him at low value. He hasn't established himself at all. He is the poster boy for enigma. Enigmas don't return much. He looks the part, but when you watch it ... it more times than not disappoints. Most people expected him to start blossoming. He hasn't.
Marte would return something. However, his 80-game suspension might give people some pause on giving up a premium. He hit 9 homers last year while on PEDs. Not a good return on that. I would actually maybe hold onto him. I still think he could be fine.
Cole - to me, he is an enigma. He can pitch a gem and hit the game winning homer one game and then get railed by a mediocre team the next. I'm sure someone would give up something for him. He is the quintessential arm that someone would overpay to get. He isn't a 19-8, 2.60 pitcher. He has regressed. Tell you what, if the Astros called me and offered me what they shipped Detroit for Verlander last night, I would say done deal. Cole won't be here past the time he becomes a free agent. He could be a dominant pitcher in this league, as two years ago shows. He has regressed for a variety of reasons. I would ship him off during the offseason.
I would trade Cutch. Wanted him moved during the offseason after a crappy year. Washington put a pretty good offer out there (basically the same one they sent the Whitesox), but NH probably called it marginal because Robles wasn't part of it. Well, Cutch sucked last year. He didn't command a big return. He shouldn't have asked for Robles. He started poorly this year ... caught fire for a few months and now, another struggle. He doesn't have long term value for Pittsburgh because he won't be here beyond 2018.
Kang - has no trade value because no one knows if he would be able to come back.
Nova - brilliant start to his Pittsburgh career after the trade and awesome the first 2 months of the season, maybe three. Recently, he is Liriano - a disaster. I think he truly likes being here and tries, unlike Frankie, but he has fallen back into the arm we got from the Yanks. Hell, Williams is pitching better and he isn't a core guy at all.
I would trade assets like Cole, Cutch and Polanco if I could right now because either they won't be around after one or two years, or they would continue to frustrate this organization with up and down play. All three probably would bring in talent because someone would overpay for Cole ... they wanted to overpay for Cutch after a lousy 2016 season and maybe they think Polanco would be worth an overpayment with the looks and potential factor. Again, potential is a word that gets managers and GMs fired, not hired.
You think this is a roster that has very few problems based on your comments. All you have to do is look at the play on the field. It dispels your notion. You are all about potential. I'm about what they have done.
There is a simple reason why we are sitting with the 10th or 11th pick right now in the upcoming draft and we will finish with a top 10 pick. You can call it unlucky all you want and blame it mostly, not all on Kang missing, Marte missing 80 games and injuries, but ... no one has really blossomed this year. Bell has and will continue to get better. You realize Mercer is third on the team in RBI. Let that sink in. We have issues in offensive production, in the rotation and certainly in the bullpen. I doubt all those will be fixed accordingly. Again, I'm not saying the Pirates need to go Cubs or Red Sox and spend billions of dollars. I'm hoping they look hard in the mirror this offseason and see the shitstorm they have caused and try to make it up to the fans. Fans are angry and rightfully so. They have basically stated they are. Attendance is down this year and will continue to go down if the same plan stays in place. You would think the owner would want to get attendance back up and make money, but he is concerned about some reliever making 600k the rest of the year and released him for nothing. You have to spend to make.
This organization has been laughed at the entire season with the Kang deal, Marte getting suspended for 80 games and the GM and owner did nothing to account for that with the money saved. Add in the Nicascio fiasco which brought more ire from fans and laughter from the pundits, then you see why this organization is what it is.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
According to you, the Pirates have four players that other teams would want? Come on, be real.
Most of these guys did win. It's sad that you only focus on the negatives than the positives. You only see 2016 & 2017.
What is your solution? You only knock ideas (mostly mine). Would you really trade everyone except Rivero, Bell, Harrison, and maybe Taillon?
I knock your ideas because I feel they warrant knocking at times to be honest. There is little dose of reality in many of your ideas. You seem to be fine with reclamation projects like our GM. You overvalue players on this roster like NH does. Your 17 names you mentioned suggest this. Remind me, what our record is. Remind me ... how we are playing.
Polanco would return something. Something big? I doubt it. You would be trading him at low value. He hasn't established himself at all. He is the poster boy for enigma. Enigmas don't return much. He looks the part, but when you watch it ... it more times than not disappoints. Most people expected him to start blossoming. He hasn't.
Marte would return something. However, his 80-game suspension might give people some pause on giving up a premium. He hit 9 homers last year while on PEDs. Not a good return on that. I would actually maybe hold onto him. I still think he could be fine.
Cole - to me, he is an enigma. He can pitch a gem and hit the game winning homer one game and then get railed by a mediocre team the next. I'm sure someone would give up something for him. He is the quintessential arm that someone would overpay to get. He isn't a 19-8, 2.60 pitcher. He has regressed. Tell you what, if the Astros called me and offered me what they shipped Detroit for Verlander last night, I would say done deal. Cole won't be here past the time he becomes a free agent. He could be a dominant pitcher in this league, as two years ago shows. He has regressed for a variety of reasons. I would ship him off during the offseason.
I would trade Cutch. Wanted him moved during the offseason after a crappy year. Washington put a pretty good offer out there (basically the same one they sent the Whitesox), but NH probably called it marginal because Robles wasn't part of it. Well, Cutch sucked last year. He didn't command a big return. He shouldn't have asked for Robles. He started poorly this year ... caught fire for a few months and now, another struggle. He doesn't have long term value for Pittsburgh because he won't be here beyond 2018.
Kang - has no trade value because no one knows if he would be able to come back.
Nova - brilliant start to his Pittsburgh career after the trade and awesome the first 2 months of the season, maybe three. Recently, he is Liriano - a disaster. I think he truly likes being here and tries, unlike Frankie, but he has fallen back into the arm we got from the Yanks. Hell, Williams is pitching better and he isn't a core guy at all.
I would trade assets like Cole, Cutch and Polanco if I could right now because either they won't be around after one or two years, or they would continue to frustrate this organization with up and down play. All three probably would bring in talent because someone would overpay for Cole ... they wanted to overpay for Cutch after a lousy 2016 season and maybe they think Polanco would be worth an overpayment with the looks and potential factor. Again, potential is a word that gets managers and GMs fired, not hired.
You think this is a roster that has very few problems based on your comments. All you have to do is look at the play on the field. It dispels your notion. You are all about potential. I'm about what they have done.
There is a simple reason why we are sitting with the 10th or 11th pick right now in the upcoming draft and we will finish with a top 10 pick. You can call it unlucky all you want and blame it mostly, not all on Kang missing, Marte missing 80 games and injuries, but ... no one has really blossomed this year. Bell has and will continue to get better. You realize Mercer is third on the team in RBI. Let that sink in. We have issues in offensive production, in the rotation and certainly in the bullpen. I doubt all those will be fixed accordingly. Again, I'm not saying the Pirates need to go Cubs or Red Sox and spend billions of dollars. I'm hoping they look hard in the mirror this offseason and see the shitstorm they have caused and try to make it up to the fans. Fans are angry and rightfully so. They have basically stated they are. Attendance is down this year and will continue to go down if the same plan stays in place. You would think the owner would want to get attendance back up and make money, but he is concerned about some reliever making 600k the rest of the year and released him for nothing. You have to spend to make.
This organization has been laughed at the entire season with the Kang deal, Marte getting suspended for 80 games and the GM and owner did nothing to account for that with the money saved. Add in the Nicascio fiasco which brought more ire from fans and laughter from the pundits, then you see why this organization is what it is.
Sick and tired
3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote: No team lost their all star outfielder and starting 3B like the Pirates. Not an excuse, but a fact.
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
The Nats have had more injuries than the Pirates this season and a lousy bullpen at beginning of the year. They have had 10 pitchers start games. Adam Eaton played in 23 games. Trea Turner missed a lot of games as has Jayson Werth.
The Cubs have had 8 pitchers start games, bad seasons from Bryant, Hayward and Russell.
Rockies have had 8 different starters. Ian Desmond missed a lot of games. Bad season from Cargo and had to deal for Lucroy.
It is questionable that the Bucs loss of Marte and Kang (especially when Kang's problems were known pretty early) are worse than what happened to other teams.
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
The Nats have had more injuries than the Pirates this season and a lousy bullpen at beginning of the year. They have had 10 pitchers start games. Adam Eaton played in 23 games. Trea Turner missed a lot of games as has Jayson Werth.
The Cubs have had 8 pitchers start games, bad seasons from Bryant, Hayward and Russell.
Rockies have had 8 different starters. Ian Desmond missed a lot of games. Bad season from Cargo and had to deal for Lucroy.
It is questionable that the Bucs loss of Marte and Kang (especially when Kang's problems were known pretty early) are worse than what happened to other teams.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Sick and tired
705657405646350 wrote: No team lost their all star outfielder and starting 3B like the Pirates. Not an excuse, but a fact.
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
The Nats have had more injuries than the Pirates this season and a lousy bullpen at beginning of the year. They have had 10 pitchers start games. Adam Eaton played in 23 games. Trea Turner missed a lot of games as has Jayson Werth.
The Cubs have had 8 pitchers start games, bad seasons from Bryant, Hayward and Russell.
Rockies have had 8 different starters. Ian Desmond missed a lot of games. Bad season from Cargo and had to deal for Lucroy.
It is questionable that the Bucs loss of Marte and Kang (especially when Kang's problems were known pretty early) are worse than what happened to other teams.
Not that this will matter to Dog, but the difference between the C'land/KC model and the Pirates is between $25M-$50M. Other than 33% more payroll I guess Dog is right - same models. ::)
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
The Nats have had more injuries than the Pirates this season and a lousy bullpen at beginning of the year. They have had 10 pitchers start games. Adam Eaton played in 23 games. Trea Turner missed a lot of games as has Jayson Werth.
The Cubs have had 8 pitchers start games, bad seasons from Bryant, Hayward and Russell.
Rockies have had 8 different starters. Ian Desmond missed a lot of games. Bad season from Cargo and had to deal for Lucroy.
It is questionable that the Bucs loss of Marte and Kang (especially when Kang's problems were known pretty early) are worse than what happened to other teams.
Not that this will matter to Dog, but the difference between the C'land/KC model and the Pirates is between $25M-$50M. Other than 33% more payroll I guess Dog is right - same models. ::)
Sick and tired
4F5F5E697F7F731C0 wrote: McCutchen, Harrison, Marte were all All Stars. Bell will probably be the Rookie of the Year runner up. Polanco will be 26 and can definitely improve on his 2016 season. Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang can be a top 3B if he makes it back. Mercer is fine. Freese, Rodriguez, and Diaz on the bench (Diaz could play a lot). Meadows is a top prospect in all of baseball.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
You nailed it SC! This is the reality of this team right now.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
You nailed it SC! This is the reality of this team right now.