101701090710575B22050F030B0E4C010D0F620 wrote: When I say "total misses" I don't mean "no value whatsoever". Total miss means they simply did not/have not resembled the franchise player as projected.
I think Pedro and Polanco are total misses in that regard. Pedro had one good season and overall good power, but his overall play did not resemble a dominate presence. Polanco is even more of a non-factor. Cole and Marte would start on just about any team, but they have not shown any ability to lift a team and carry it.
I also think Cole and Marte are elite talents. They're good players right now that should be much better with an impact that literally changes the team.
My point - if these 4 players approached their expectations the Pirates would be WS contenders and maybe WS winners.
Please no more Alvarez talk. Now we will have to listen to Dog defend him for days. The fact is he couldn't catch the baseball. I could care less if he led the league in homeruns at 1 point in his career, he is already gone and was supposed to be the cornerstone of this franchise.
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
The Pirates don't make the playoffs without Alvarez, Marte and Cole from 2013-2015 either. Those three were big reasons why they had the run they had in those years.
It takes more than four players to win a World Series.
I only defending Alvarez over the others people thought who were better: Morse, Martinez, Rodriguez, Morel, Inge, McDonald.
It takes more than four players to win a World Series.
I only defending Alvarez over the others people thought who were better: Morse, Martinez, Rodriguez, Morel, Inge, McDonald.
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Nobody is really wrong in this thread.
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
It was a fun discussion back in 2011 when we couldn't decide who the Pirates should take #1 overall.
As far as I can remember the guys who went top ten were the ones that we were talking about.
1. Cole
2. DannyHultzen (Mariners)--derailed by injuries
3. Trevor Bauer (Diamondbacks)--looked a little like a bust but has been resurgent with the Indians. I'd still say that overall Cole has had more success (but only so far)
4. Dylan Bundy (Orioles)--looks like decent season this year, not great but OK
5. Bubba Starling (Royals)--total washout
6. Anthony Rendon (Nationals)--has been really good and important piece for Nats run
7. Archie Bradley (Diamondbacks)--looks like he disappointed highly as a starter but has been super in the pen this year. Probably not what you want with a high pick but better than nothing.
8. Francisco Lindor (Indians)--guy's awesome. I think with a redo I'd take him over anyone else in this list.
9. Javier Baez (Cubs)--he's okay
10. Corey Spangenberg (Padres)--eh. Okay, less so than Baez.
As far as I can remember the guys who went top ten were the ones that we were talking about.
1. Cole
2. DannyHultzen (Mariners)--derailed by injuries
3. Trevor Bauer (Diamondbacks)--looked a little like a bust but has been resurgent with the Indians. I'd still say that overall Cole has had more success (but only so far)
4. Dylan Bundy (Orioles)--looks like decent season this year, not great but OK
5. Bubba Starling (Royals)--total washout
6. Anthony Rendon (Nationals)--has been really good and important piece for Nats run
7. Archie Bradley (Diamondbacks)--looks like he disappointed highly as a starter but has been super in the pen this year. Probably not what you want with a high pick but better than nothing.
8. Francisco Lindor (Indians)--guy's awesome. I think with a redo I'd take him over anyone else in this list.
9. Javier Baez (Cubs)--he's okay
10. Corey Spangenberg (Padres)--eh. Okay, less so than Baez.
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
The problem seems to be the projections and expectations as much as the players themselves.
There's a huge amount of prospect pumping in this organization and it seems like it's resulted in a lot of disappointment.
It feels to me like it's something we as fans should learn from, as it's happened too often to just be bad luck at this point.
Our guys just a aren't as good as they're pumped up to be coming through the minors. I accept that it seems likely that trend will continue.
There's a huge amount of prospect pumping in this organization and it seems like it's resulted in a lot of disappointment.
It feels to me like it's something we as fans should learn from, as it's happened too often to just be bad luck at this point.
Our guys just a aren't as good as they're pumped up to be coming through the minors. I accept that it seems likely that trend will continue.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Rendon was the clear #1 choice, but he got hurt in college. I think it was a hand injury too, so it was something that jeopardized his future.
I remember thinking at the time how the Pirates have bad luck when it comes to the draft. Harper and Strasburg were clear #1 choices and projected to be huge superstars, but the Pirates had the second and fourth overall picks those years. They finally get the #1 pick and Rendon gets hurt.
I remember thinking at the time how the Pirates have bad luck when it comes to the draft. Harper and Strasburg were clear #1 choices and projected to be huge superstars, but the Pirates had the second and fourth overall picks those years. They finally get the #1 pick and Rendon gets hurt.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
7A4844445062414845404F48290 wrote: It was a fun discussion back in 2011 when we couldn't decide who the Pirates should take #1 overall.
As far as I can remember the guys who went top ten were the ones that we were talking about.
1. Cole
2. DannyHultzen (Mariners)--derailed by injuries
3. Trevor Bauer (Diamondbacks)--looked a little like a bust but has been resurgent with the Indians. I'd still say that overall Cole has had more success (but only so far)
4. Dylan Bundy (Orioles)--looks like decent season this year, not great but OK
5. Bubba Starling (Royals)--total washout
6. Anthony Rendon (Nationals)--has been really good and important piece for Nats run
7. Archie Bradley (Diamondbacks)--looks like he disappointed highly as a starter but has been super in the pen this year. Probably not what you want with a high pick but better than nothing.
8. Francisco Lindor (Indians)--guy's awesome. I think with a redo I'd take him over anyone else in this list.
9. Javier Baez (Cubs)--he's okay
10. Corey Spangenberg (Padres)--eh. Okay, less so than Baez.
I was all over signing Bubba! It was a gut feeling. Nevertheless, I still think I'm qualified to tell the Pirates how to run the team.
As far as I can remember the guys who went top ten were the ones that we were talking about.
1. Cole
2. DannyHultzen (Mariners)--derailed by injuries
3. Trevor Bauer (Diamondbacks)--looked a little like a bust but has been resurgent with the Indians. I'd still say that overall Cole has had more success (but only so far)
4. Dylan Bundy (Orioles)--looks like decent season this year, not great but OK
5. Bubba Starling (Royals)--total washout
6. Anthony Rendon (Nationals)--has been really good and important piece for Nats run
7. Archie Bradley (Diamondbacks)--looks like he disappointed highly as a starter but has been super in the pen this year. Probably not what you want with a high pick but better than nothing.
8. Francisco Lindor (Indians)--guy's awesome. I think with a redo I'd take him over anyone else in this list.
9. Javier Baez (Cubs)--he's okay
10. Corey Spangenberg (Padres)--eh. Okay, less so than Baez.
I was all over signing Bubba! It was a gut feeling. Nevertheless, I still think I'm qualified to tell the Pirates how to run the team.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
040F070B0E0F145157201901080F0F4E030F600 wrote: Rendon was the clear #1 choice, but he got hurt in college. I think it was a hand injury too, so it was something that jeopardized his future.
I remember thinking at the time how the Pirates have bad luck when it comes to the draft. Harper and Strasburg were clear #1 choices and projected to be huge superstars, but the Pirates had the second and fourth overall picks those years. They finally get the #1 pick and Rendon gets hurt.
I remember that! It was basically down to do you take Rendon, or do you take someone else because you don't trust his history. I guess he recovered okay from that, heh.
I remember thinking at the time how the Pirates have bad luck when it comes to the draft. Harper and Strasburg were clear #1 choices and projected to be huge superstars, but the Pirates had the second and fourth overall picks those years. They finally get the #1 pick and Rendon gets hurt.
I remember that! It was basically down to do you take Rendon, or do you take someone else because you don't trust his history. I guess he recovered okay from that, heh.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
6B4B5845442A0 wrote: Nobody is really wrong in this thread.
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Well, both could be right (certainly the playoff teams were helped) but my point was to create some prospective. Each of these four carried expectations that no one else has (Cutch as already proving to be a great player) in this era of Pirate baseball.
I think a lot of people are sort of dazed by the last year or two - "what happened to this franchise that looked so solid...". I know I've focused on poor performance by Neal, Nutting and Clint, and they all bear responsibility for roles. But...
But the greatest failure is these four players, with off the charts expectations, simply haven't/didn't perform at a level anywhere near expectations. And EC is correct, above. I'm not talking about for a year or two, I'm talking about building a team that looked to have staying power for a long time.
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Well, both could be right (certainly the playoff teams were helped) but my point was to create some prospective. Each of these four carried expectations that no one else has (Cutch as already proving to be a great player) in this era of Pirate baseball.
I think a lot of people are sort of dazed by the last year or two - "what happened to this franchise that looked so solid...". I know I've focused on poor performance by Neal, Nutting and Clint, and they all bear responsibility for roles. But...
But the greatest failure is these four players, with off the charts expectations, simply haven't/didn't perform at a level anywhere near expectations. And EC is correct, above. I'm not talking about for a year or two, I'm talking about building a team that looked to have staying power for a long time.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
5E594F47495E19156C4B414D4540024F43412C0 wrote: Nobody is really wrong in this thread.
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Well, both could be right (certainly the playoff teams were helped) but my point was to create some prospective. Each of these four carried expectations that no one else has (Cutch as already proving to be a great player) in this era of Pirate baseball.
I think a lot of people are sort of dazed by the last year or two - "what happened to this franchise that looked so solid...". I know I've focused on poor performance by Neal, Nutting and Clint, and they all bear responsibility for roles. But...
But the greatest failure is these four players, with off the charts expectations, simply haven't/didn't perform at a level anywhere near expectations. And EC is correct, above. I'm not talking about for a year or two, I'm talking about building a team that looked to have staying power for a long time.
To your point, I think a lot of people were taking the "Dream Outfield" more-or-less for granted for the next few years (a dream outfield that didn't include Bubba Starling, haha).
Dogknot's point that those players contributed to the playoff run is correct.
VaP's point that overall, the combined careers of those players have been disappointing and haven't contributed enough is also correct.
Why does it have to be one or the other?
Well, both could be right (certainly the playoff teams were helped) but my point was to create some prospective. Each of these four carried expectations that no one else has (Cutch as already proving to be a great player) in this era of Pirate baseball.
I think a lot of people are sort of dazed by the last year or two - "what happened to this franchise that looked so solid...". I know I've focused on poor performance by Neal, Nutting and Clint, and they all bear responsibility for roles. But...
But the greatest failure is these four players, with off the charts expectations, simply haven't/didn't perform at a level anywhere near expectations. And EC is correct, above. I'm not talking about for a year or two, I'm talking about building a team that looked to have staying power for a long time.
To your point, I think a lot of people were taking the "Dream Outfield" more-or-less for granted for the next few years (a dream outfield that didn't include Bubba Starling, haha).