Watching other "small mkt" teams dominate (C'land) as projected preseason, exceed expectations and push hard for a division championship (Brewers) or try for one more WS (KC) - it's easy to see why Pirate fans are so discouraged (or worse) - we all knew, these were suppose to be OUR years.
It seemed so close, it was so close. Then "poof" - nothing, and we've had to watch any number of teams pass us as we unexpectedly sputter around the track. Now, we're a mere afterthought and a mess of angry fans.
We've batted around Neal's failure and Nutting's personal fortune and Clint's "book", all of which are legit. But looking back there are four players that bear even greater responsibility. Four "can't miss" franchise defining prospects that were to be the backbone of WS championships but ultimately failed to come close to their prospect status. Everything would be different today if these guys had fulfilled their promise or even come close:
Pedro
Cole
Marte
Polanco
Enigmas all. Some with possible attitude/character issues. Some total "misses" but all ultimate underachievers. Looking back, it's easy to see why there was so much hope, and now it's easy to find the biggest disappointments.
These four broke our hearts and no doubt caused Neal many sleepless nights.
What could have been. What should have been....
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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CarolinaBucco
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Great point.
Those guys were all projected or at least viewed as likely superstars.
And, like you said, compared to their expectations, all have been massive disappointments.
I still can't figure out the Polanco hype. Remember as he was coming up through the minors, he was going to be a .300 hitter, with power, speed and a Gold-Glove caliber OF.
Does that go down as the worst minor league scouting report ever? The actual Polanco isn't even a shell of the projection. Average speed, average power, a .260 kind of hitter and defense is well belove average. Plus, he's always hurt. I can see the potential there, but he doesn't seem close to realizing it.
Those guys were all projected or at least viewed as likely superstars.
And, like you said, compared to their expectations, all have been massive disappointments.
I still can't figure out the Polanco hype. Remember as he was coming up through the minors, he was going to be a .300 hitter, with power, speed and a Gold-Glove caliber OF.
Does that go down as the worst minor league scouting report ever? The actual Polanco isn't even a shell of the projection. Average speed, average power, a .260 kind of hitter and defense is well belove average. Plus, he's always hurt. I can see the potential there, but he doesn't seem close to realizing it.
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ArnoldRothstein
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
I think that the players who define the current era are the ones who were never here at all. For the Pirates to be good, the farm system has to be excellent, and it's been average at best.
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SammyKhalifa
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- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Wasn't Marte a Littlefield signing?
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johnfluharty
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Yes. Marte signed in Jan 2007 and Littlefield was fired Sep 2007
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
Who do you consider a total miss?
Cole, Marte and Alvarez were all All Stars. Alvarez led the league in HRs at one point. Cole won 19 games. Marte was what many considered the best LF in the game. I certainly wouldn't call any of those guys "misses". Cole and Marte will be in the league for years to come. Not sure what happened to Alvarez.
Polanco is only 25 years old. He hasn't lived up to the hype, but he can certainly stick around and be a piece on a winner. He is fast and can throw. He has showed some power. His glove has never been good, but I feel players get hyped on defense due to their arm. Polanco's problem is that he can't catch the ball when it hits his glove. I would be surprised if Polanco flames out like Alvarez as I feel Polanco can hit like many average players in the majors right now.
Huntington needs to draft better as he hasn't had that true impact for a longer period of time. He needs to start trading and going for windows of opportunity instead of trying to be competitive every single year. Due to his drafting, that strategy isn't working.
Cole, Marte and Alvarez were all All Stars. Alvarez led the league in HRs at one point. Cole won 19 games. Marte was what many considered the best LF in the game. I certainly wouldn't call any of those guys "misses". Cole and Marte will be in the league for years to come. Not sure what happened to Alvarez.
Polanco is only 25 years old. He hasn't lived up to the hype, but he can certainly stick around and be a piece on a winner. He is fast and can throw. He has showed some power. His glove has never been good, but I feel players get hyped on defense due to their arm. Polanco's problem is that he can't catch the ball when it hits his glove. I would be surprised if Polanco flames out like Alvarez as I feel Polanco can hit like many average players in the majors right now.
Huntington needs to draft better as he hasn't had that true impact for a longer period of time. He needs to start trading and going for windows of opportunity instead of trying to be competitive every single year. Due to his drafting, that strategy isn't working.
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Bobster21
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
I don't see any of the 4 as total misses. In fact, I think Marte has been an elite player. Until this suspension marred season, he had 4 very good years preceding it, hitting for high averages, with 30+ SBs, good speed, great arm and 2 gold gloves. Not a big HR hitter but wasn't in the minors either so no reason to assume he would be. Unfortunately, he has never been a smart player, often making dumb base running mistakes. But otherwise he has been quite an asset and I think most contenders would find a spot for him in their OF.
In 4 years, Polanco has settled in consistently as a .250-.260 hitter. Poor defensively despite hype to the contrary. Often injured. On a good team he could be a nice complimentary piece as long as he's not expected to carry a heavy load. That is, if he batted 6th or 7th and contributed while staying healthy, he would be a solid player. But expecting more than that seems unlikely. So he has failed to be a block to build around.
As an early #1 draft pick, Alvarez was viewed as a franchise hitter. But he turned out to have power and nothing else. Led NL in HRs once so there's that. But otherwise too low of an average to hit 4th or 5th as his hits were too infrequent and a high K rate and couldn't play defense. The HRs were nice but he produced substantially less than was expected. His exit seemed to be addition by subtraction except for the fact that he was merely replaced by a bargain-basement catcher turned 1Bman.
As the #1 overall draft pick, Cole was supposed to be the ace that could stack up against the star pitchers of other contenders. And for 1 year he was. But not before or since. Very inconsistent. Not at all the dominating ace that was expected except for 1 single season.
This would certainly be a different team if Cole was consistently dominating on the mound while Polanco, Alvarez and Marte were providing great offense. But IMHO, only Marte has been as advertised and then he got suspended which certainly didn't help.
In 4 years, Polanco has settled in consistently as a .250-.260 hitter. Poor defensively despite hype to the contrary. Often injured. On a good team he could be a nice complimentary piece as long as he's not expected to carry a heavy load. That is, if he batted 6th or 7th and contributed while staying healthy, he would be a solid player. But expecting more than that seems unlikely. So he has failed to be a block to build around.
As an early #1 draft pick, Alvarez was viewed as a franchise hitter. But he turned out to have power and nothing else. Led NL in HRs once so there's that. But otherwise too low of an average to hit 4th or 5th as his hits were too infrequent and a high K rate and couldn't play defense. The HRs were nice but he produced substantially less than was expected. His exit seemed to be addition by subtraction except for the fact that he was merely replaced by a bargain-basement catcher turned 1Bman.
As the #1 overall draft pick, Cole was supposed to be the ace that could stack up against the star pitchers of other contenders. And for 1 year he was. But not before or since. Very inconsistent. Not at all the dominating ace that was expected except for 1 single season.
This would certainly be a different team if Cole was consistently dominating on the mound while Polanco, Alvarez and Marte were providing great offense. But IMHO, only Marte has been as advertised and then he got suspended which certainly didn't help.
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
7275636B6572353940676D61696C2E636F6D000 wrote: These four broke our hearts and no doubt caused Neal many sleepless nights.
There is absolutely nothing related to the Pirates that causes NH to have even a single sleepless night.
Ever. Not one time.
If there is anyone that doesn't even remotely have to be concerned about his job performance, it's Neal Huntington.
If you need any evidence, take a look at his four year contract extension that was announced last week.
There is absolutely nothing related to the Pirates that causes NH to have even a single sleepless night.
Ever. Not one time.
If there is anyone that doesn't even remotely have to be concerned about his job performance, it's Neal Huntington.
If you need any evidence, take a look at his four year contract extension that was announced last week.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
When I say "total misses" I don't mean "no value whatsoever". Total miss means they simply did not/have not resembled the franchise player as projected.
I think Pedro and Polanco are total misses in that regard. Pedro had one good season and overall good power, but his overall play did not resemble a dominate presence. Polanco is even more of a non-factor. Cole and Marte would start on just about any team, but they have not shown any ability to lift a team and carry it.
I also think Cole and Marte are elite talents. They're good players right now that should be much better with an impact that literally changes the team.
My point - if these 4 players approached their expectations the Pirates would be WS contenders and maybe WS winners.
I think Pedro and Polanco are total misses in that regard. Pedro had one good season and overall good power, but his overall play did not resemble a dominate presence. Polanco is even more of a non-factor. Cole and Marte would start on just about any team, but they have not shown any ability to lift a team and carry it.
I also think Cole and Marte are elite talents. They're good players right now that should be much better with an impact that literally changes the team.
My point - if these 4 players approached their expectations the Pirates would be WS contenders and maybe WS winners.
Four players that define the Neal Huntington era
3532242C2235727E07202A262E2B6924282A470 wrote: When I say "total misses" I don't mean "no value whatsoever". Total miss means they simply did not/have not resembled the franchise player as projected.
I think Pedro and Polanco are total misses in that regard. Pedro had one good season and overall good power, but his overall play did not resemble a dominate presence. Polanco is even more of a non-factor. Cole and Marte would start on just about any team, but they have not shown any ability to lift a team and carry it.
I also think Cole and Marte are elite talents. They're good players right now that should be much better with an impact that literally changes the team.
My point - if these 4 players approached their expectations the Pirates would be WS contenders and maybe WS winners.
to me your point is these guys needed to produce at a high level for several years. Only Marte has done that.
Winning teams have several players that are play well above average and the past two years the Bucs haven't had very many of them.
I heard a talking head on ESPN this a.m. (have no idea who he was) speak about how important is to have pitching staffs that strike out batters. All teams that would currently make the playoffs get strikeouts at a high rate. He said pitch to contact is not a good philosophy and is especially bad in the playoffs.
Also said that record in one run games is not important. That really good teams get more blow out wins and that is the measure of a good team.
I think Pedro and Polanco are total misses in that regard. Pedro had one good season and overall good power, but his overall play did not resemble a dominate presence. Polanco is even more of a non-factor. Cole and Marte would start on just about any team, but they have not shown any ability to lift a team and carry it.
I also think Cole and Marte are elite talents. They're good players right now that should be much better with an impact that literally changes the team.
My point - if these 4 players approached their expectations the Pirates would be WS contenders and maybe WS winners.
to me your point is these guys needed to produce at a high level for several years. Only Marte has done that.
Winning teams have several players that are play well above average and the past two years the Bucs haven't had very many of them.
I heard a talking head on ESPN this a.m. (have no idea who he was) speak about how important is to have pitching staffs that strike out batters. All teams that would currently make the playoffs get strikeouts at a high rate. He said pitch to contact is not a good philosophy and is especially bad in the playoffs.
Also said that record in one run games is not important. That really good teams get more blow out wins and that is the measure of a good team.