373C34383D3C276264132A323B3C3C7D303C530 wrote: I think about how many pitchers were using too. There had to be more than the few who were caught. If there was, does that even it out the offensive numbers?
It's just hard to erase a whole era that benefitted baseball. That era probably saved baseball after the strikes/hold outs. Is it right to assume certain players were on the juice because they had great seasons/careers?
No I don't think it's right, and that is the dilemma facing voters for the HOF. I would hope that those who have a vote will do their due diligence in researching each potential candidate with regard to steroid use. Unfortunately there is a risk that some deserving non-users will be excluded based on unfounded suspicion while some users will be elected because they were better at deceiving everyone. It's a lousy situation for which I don't have a good solution.
Rafael Palmeiro
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Rafael Palmeiro
0521353D38540 wrote: From Wikipedia:
On March 17, 2005, Palmeiro appeared at a Congressional hearing about steroids in baseball and, while under oath, denied ever using steroids and stated, "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."[24]
On August 1, 2005, Palmeiro was suspended for ten days after testing positive for a steroid.[25]
If the gates to the HOF ever open for known steroid users it won't be for one who also lied before congress. Mr. Palmeiro needs to sit down and shut up.
All the steroid users are liars. Do you think all of the rest of them would stand up and admit it? They lied to their teams, to baseball, to the fans. Liars. They depended on that lie to be successful at the career they spent their lives dedicated to. To back down at that point would have been the end of everything they worked (and cheated) for.
Lying before congress is a national pastime as much as baseball, and far worse lies are told there than about steroids in baseball.
Don't care about Palmeiro, but the more I think about it, the more I can't get overly worked up about someone who stuck with his lie as he was asked about it. I don't know how I feel about that era. In the past, I've hated it and groused about those who took drugs to enhance their performance, but now that it's over, I wonder how we should treat that era in a historical sense. Maybe we should just recognize what they did, and also recognize the difference in the era, much like live ball/dead ball, etc.
Hard to say though. If they broke the rules, that should disqualify them. But do we just single out those who got caught? Surely Bonds did not do what he did without chemical help.
What I think about other steroid users is irrelevant to the specific issue of a manipulative Palmiero attempting to reset his retirement date in hopes of finding a (younger) more forgiving HOF voting membership. The point I was making was that Palmiero of all steroid users would be the most unlikely to garner support after his emphatic public denial in a national forum and subsequent shameful failing of a drug test. He's essentially the embarrassment poster child for the steroid era.
Personally I believe those who used steroids to enhance their performance, careers, and monetary gain should be barred from entry to the HOF. These individuals garnered fame and fortune under false pretenses, deceiving fans and cheating their rule abiding teammates. They had their glory and it was tainted by their own unethical behavior. No need to reprise it and reward these cheaters twice for bad behavior.
Perfectly stated.
On March 17, 2005, Palmeiro appeared at a Congressional hearing about steroids in baseball and, while under oath, denied ever using steroids and stated, "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."[24]
On August 1, 2005, Palmeiro was suspended for ten days after testing positive for a steroid.[25]
If the gates to the HOF ever open for known steroid users it won't be for one who also lied before congress. Mr. Palmeiro needs to sit down and shut up.
All the steroid users are liars. Do you think all of the rest of them would stand up and admit it? They lied to their teams, to baseball, to the fans. Liars. They depended on that lie to be successful at the career they spent their lives dedicated to. To back down at that point would have been the end of everything they worked (and cheated) for.
Lying before congress is a national pastime as much as baseball, and far worse lies are told there than about steroids in baseball.
Don't care about Palmeiro, but the more I think about it, the more I can't get overly worked up about someone who stuck with his lie as he was asked about it. I don't know how I feel about that era. In the past, I've hated it and groused about those who took drugs to enhance their performance, but now that it's over, I wonder how we should treat that era in a historical sense. Maybe we should just recognize what they did, and also recognize the difference in the era, much like live ball/dead ball, etc.
Hard to say though. If they broke the rules, that should disqualify them. But do we just single out those who got caught? Surely Bonds did not do what he did without chemical help.
What I think about other steroid users is irrelevant to the specific issue of a manipulative Palmiero attempting to reset his retirement date in hopes of finding a (younger) more forgiving HOF voting membership. The point I was making was that Palmiero of all steroid users would be the most unlikely to garner support after his emphatic public denial in a national forum and subsequent shameful failing of a drug test. He's essentially the embarrassment poster child for the steroid era.
Personally I believe those who used steroids to enhance their performance, careers, and monetary gain should be barred from entry to the HOF. These individuals garnered fame and fortune under false pretenses, deceiving fans and cheating their rule abiding teammates. They had their glory and it was tainted by their own unethical behavior. No need to reprise it and reward these cheaters twice for bad behavior.
Perfectly stated.
Rafael Palmeiro
507460686D010 wrote: From Wikipedia:
On March 17, 2005, Palmeiro appeared at a Congressional hearing about steroids in baseball and, while under oath, denied ever using steroids and stated, "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."[24]
On August 1, 2005, Palmeiro was suspended for ten days after testing positive for a steroid.[25]
If the gates to the HOF ever open for known steroid users it won't be for one who also lied before congress. Mr. Palmeiro needs to sit down and shut up.
All the steroid users are liars. Do you think all of the rest of them would stand up and admit it? They lied to their teams, to baseball, to the fans. Liars. They depended on that lie to be successful at the career they spent their lives dedicated to. To back down at that point would have been the end of everything they worked (and cheated) for.
Lying before congress is a national pastime as much as baseball, and far worse lies are told there than about steroids in baseball.
Don't care about Palmeiro, but the more I think about it, the more I can't get overly worked up about someone who stuck with his lie as he was asked about it. I don't know how I feel about that era. In the past, I've hated it and groused about those who took drugs to enhance their performance, but now that it's over, I wonder how we should treat that era in a historical sense. Maybe we should just recognize what they did, and also recognize the difference in the era, much like live ball/dead ball, etc.
Hard to say though. If they broke the rules, that should disqualify them. But do we just single out those who got caught? Surely Bonds did not do what he did without chemical help.
What I think about other steroid users is irrelevant to the specific issue of a manipulative Palmiero attempting to reset his retirement date in hopes of finding a (younger) more forgiving HOF voting membership.
That's just sad and pathetic. Full stop. Kind of in the spirit of his substance use, he's trying to cheat the system.
On March 17, 2005, Palmeiro appeared at a Congressional hearing about steroids in baseball and, while under oath, denied ever using steroids and stated, "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."[24]
On August 1, 2005, Palmeiro was suspended for ten days after testing positive for a steroid.[25]
If the gates to the HOF ever open for known steroid users it won't be for one who also lied before congress. Mr. Palmeiro needs to sit down and shut up.
All the steroid users are liars. Do you think all of the rest of them would stand up and admit it? They lied to their teams, to baseball, to the fans. Liars. They depended on that lie to be successful at the career they spent their lives dedicated to. To back down at that point would have been the end of everything they worked (and cheated) for.
Lying before congress is a national pastime as much as baseball, and far worse lies are told there than about steroids in baseball.
Don't care about Palmeiro, but the more I think about it, the more I can't get overly worked up about someone who stuck with his lie as he was asked about it. I don't know how I feel about that era. In the past, I've hated it and groused about those who took drugs to enhance their performance, but now that it's over, I wonder how we should treat that era in a historical sense. Maybe we should just recognize what they did, and also recognize the difference in the era, much like live ball/dead ball, etc.
Hard to say though. If they broke the rules, that should disqualify them. But do we just single out those who got caught? Surely Bonds did not do what he did without chemical help.
What I think about other steroid users is irrelevant to the specific issue of a manipulative Palmiero attempting to reset his retirement date in hopes of finding a (younger) more forgiving HOF voting membership.
That's just sad and pathetic. Full stop. Kind of in the spirit of his substance use, he's trying to cheat the system.
Rafael Palmeiro
I enjoyed the steriod era of baseball and you did too..So get off your high horses...Did you not cheer Brian Giles and his 40 hrs .
You had to be stupid not to know the game was juiced .It was starting in the early 90`s ..You could just tell year to year with some players bodies. Think back to braves player Ron Gant remember how built that guy was or catcher Javy Lopez or Marcus Giles ...I mention the Braves because i live in south and watched many of their games and still do.
Athletes will always try and cheat the system .In the 70-80`s it was cocaine. So those Pirates didnt really win the 1979 WS. Because you can be sure they were doing some big fat lines.
You had to be stupid not to know the game was juiced .It was starting in the early 90`s ..You could just tell year to year with some players bodies. Think back to braves player Ron Gant remember how built that guy was or catcher Javy Lopez or Marcus Giles ...I mention the Braves because i live in south and watched many of their games and still do.
Athletes will always try and cheat the system .In the 70-80`s it was cocaine. So those Pirates didnt really win the 1979 WS. Because you can be sure they were doing some big fat lines.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Rafael Palmeiro
I agree. That era saved baseball after the strikes/hold outs. The 1998 season was one of the best ever. No one cared when it was happening. And no one really knew who was doing what. Didn't Bonds pass every drug test, yet he is the face of the steroid era?
It is very sad if Palmeiro is trying to beat the system and restart his Hall of Fame clock too. Funny, but sad.
It is very sad if Palmeiro is trying to beat the system and restart his Hall of Fame clock too. Funny, but sad.
Rafael Palmeiro
7D767E7277766D282E596078717676377A76190 wrote: I agree. That era saved baseball after the strikes/hold outs. The 1998 season was one of the best ever. No one cared when it was happening. And no one really knew who was doing what. Didn't Bonds pass every drug test, yet he is the face of the steroid era?
I agree with you 100%. We all enjoyed that era of baseball, knowing full well what was going on. Too sit back now and condemn those players seems hypocritical too me. We didn't really know who was using so should we just not vote anyone in from that era.
It is very sad if Palmeiro is trying to beat the system and restart his Hall of Fame clock too. Funny, but sad.
I agree with you 100%. We all enjoyed that era of baseball, knowing full well what was going on. Too sit back now and condemn those players seems hypocritical too me. We didn't really know who was using so should we just not vote anyone in from that era.
It is very sad if Palmeiro is trying to beat the system and restart his Hall of Fame clock too. Funny, but sad.
Rafael Palmeiro
4C777D765A1E0 wrote: I enjoyed the steriod era of baseball and you did too..So get off your high horses...Did you not cheer Brian Giles and his 40 hrs .
You had to be stupid not to know the game was juiced .It was starting in the early 90`s ..You could just tell year to year with some players bodies. Think back to braves player Ron Gant remember how built that guy was or catcher Javy Lopez or Marcus Giles ...I mention the Braves because i live in south and watched many of their games and still do.
Athletes will always try and cheat the system .In the 70-80`s it was cocaine. So those Pirates didnt really win the 1979 WS. Because you can be sure they were doing some big fat lines.
Just to be clear I stopped following baseball after the strike shortened 1994 season and didn't resume following baseball until the 2005 season when MLB instituted its steroid testing and suspension program. So no, I didn't cheer Brian Giles or "enjoy" anything about the steroid era. Your assumption about me (and perhaps many others) is as faulty as your defense of the players who acted unethically.
It's worth pointing out that there is a significant difference between recreational use of drugs like cocaine and the use of performance enhancing drugs by MLB players. Your suggestion otherwise is a classic case of false equivalency. A player who decides to screw up his life by illegally using cocaine (which is not a performance enhancing drug) isn't lessening any other player's chance to make a living by having an unfair on-the-field advantage. The PED using MLB player is usurping the livelihood of someone else.
You had to be stupid not to know the game was juiced .It was starting in the early 90`s ..You could just tell year to year with some players bodies. Think back to braves player Ron Gant remember how built that guy was or catcher Javy Lopez or Marcus Giles ...I mention the Braves because i live in south and watched many of their games and still do.
Athletes will always try and cheat the system .In the 70-80`s it was cocaine. So those Pirates didnt really win the 1979 WS. Because you can be sure they were doing some big fat lines.
Just to be clear I stopped following baseball after the strike shortened 1994 season and didn't resume following baseball until the 2005 season when MLB instituted its steroid testing and suspension program. So no, I didn't cheer Brian Giles or "enjoy" anything about the steroid era. Your assumption about me (and perhaps many others) is as faulty as your defense of the players who acted unethically.
It's worth pointing out that there is a significant difference between recreational use of drugs like cocaine and the use of performance enhancing drugs by MLB players. Your suggestion otherwise is a classic case of false equivalency. A player who decides to screw up his life by illegally using cocaine (which is not a performance enhancing drug) isn't lessening any other player's chance to make a living by having an unfair on-the-field advantage. The PED using MLB player is usurping the livelihood of someone else.
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Bobster21
Rafael Palmeiro
I agree with Quail. And I wasn't jumping with giddy delight because longstanding records were falling willy-nilly by guys juicing their bodies to overproduce. I thought it was awful.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Rafael Palmeiro
0A2E3A32375B0 wrote:
It's worth pointing out that there is a significant difference between recreational use of drugs like cocaine and the use of performance enhancing drugs by MLB players. Your suggestion otherwise is a classic case of false equivalency. A player who decides to screw up his life by illegally using cocaine (which is not a performance enhancing drug) isn't lessening any other player's chance to make a living by having an unfair on-the-field advantage. The PED using MLB player is usurping the livelihood of someone else.
But how about greenies? Apparently "Pops" was handing them out like skittles.
I'm not asking to judge or attack you--i'm asking myself the same thing.
It's worth pointing out that there is a significant difference between recreational use of drugs like cocaine and the use of performance enhancing drugs by MLB players. Your suggestion otherwise is a classic case of false equivalency. A player who decides to screw up his life by illegally using cocaine (which is not a performance enhancing drug) isn't lessening any other player's chance to make a living by having an unfair on-the-field advantage. The PED using MLB player is usurping the livelihood of someone else.
But how about greenies? Apparently "Pops" was handing them out like skittles.
I'm not asking to judge or attack you--i'm asking myself the same thing.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Rafael Palmeiro
Cocaine is an upper and can help with motor skills too.
Baseball didn't enforce anything. Did I think it was wrong, yes. Were any rules broken, no. There also isn't much proof that that PEDs made players better. It is all speculation.
I would still put those players in the Hall of Fame, but I totally understand why others feel they shouldn't get in and how it ruined the game to some.
Baseball didn't enforce anything. Did I think it was wrong, yes. Were any rules broken, no. There also isn't much proof that that PEDs made players better. It is all speculation.
I would still put those players in the Hall of Fame, but I totally understand why others feel they shouldn't get in and how it ruined the game to some.