As a long suffering and very frustrated Pirate fan; I began thinking about what could be done to almost force Nutting into investing more dollars into the franchise. We all know that he is sitting on a Billion dollar asset. In the 10 years since he has become the majority owner the value of the franchise has increased over 70 million a year.
In addition I would like to know what the Pirates and Steelers are getting for the developmental rights that the City gave them to develop the land between PNC Park and Heinz Field.
I am not sure if this is correct but I believe the Pirates signed a 20 year lease when PNC was built. The lease would expire in 3 years.
What if the City jacked up the rent Nutting pays by say 20-25 million. The City gives Nutting a choice that he can either invest that 25 million in his ML payroll to put the Pirates more towards the median. If he does not the City gets the added resources to use as they wish
The City and the people of Pittsburgh deserve an ownership group committed to trying to win. Not one that is trying to maximize every last dollar from the City and fan base.
The Nutting Dilema
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The Nutting Dilema
The lease expires in 2030. The Pirates pay what they and the Sports and Exhibition Authority contractually agreed to. The SEA can't unilaterally change the terms of the agreement. They try something like that and all of a sudden we'll be looking at the Carolina Buccos.
Here's the lease. The Bucs pay a straight $100,000 plus a potential cut of the tickets and concessions.
Here's the lease. The Bucs pay a straight $100,000 plus a potential cut of the tickets and concessions.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
The Nutting Dilema
Was trying to think out of the box. Wasn't sure if it was a 20 year or 30 year lease. Too bad Nutting holds all the cards.
The Nutting Dilema
I totally get your frustration. But team owners have the leverage (and probably better lawyers) when it comes to those negotiations.
That's why the old Civic Arena site is still a parking lot after the Penguins got the development rights a decade ago.
That's why the old Civic Arena site is still a parking lot after the Penguins got the development rights a decade ago.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3591
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
The Nutting Dilema
Just as an FYI I think the naming rights agreement with PNC Bank expires in three years. So the Bucs will receive some additional revenue from PNC or whoever may want the ballpark named after their corporation.
The Nutting Dilema
1F3833105D0 wrote: The lease expires in 2030. The Pirates pay what they and the Sports and Exhibition Authority contractually agreed to. The SEA can't unilaterally change the terms of the agreement. They try something like that and all of a sudden we'll be looking at the Carolina Buccos.
Here's the lease. The Bucs pay a straight $100,000 plus a potential cut of the tickets and concessions.
We would not be looking at not having an MLB team here with the PNC park facility for very long at all. MLB is already trying to expand and if the league allowed a scumbag like Nutting to move the team (which Carolina is even a smaller market and would then have 3 other sports franchises to compete with for fan revenue instead of 2) anew team would be in here in short order.
They would also be named the Pittsburgh Pirates and I'm sure we'd still be watching videos from 71' and 79' on repeat, like we do now.
Nothing gets kids going like reliving stories from 60 years ago during rain delays.
Here's the lease. The Bucs pay a straight $100,000 plus a potential cut of the tickets and concessions.
We would not be looking at not having an MLB team here with the PNC park facility for very long at all. MLB is already trying to expand and if the league allowed a scumbag like Nutting to move the team (which Carolina is even a smaller market and would then have 3 other sports franchises to compete with for fan revenue instead of 2) anew team would be in here in short order.
They would also be named the Pittsburgh Pirates and I'm sure we'd still be watching videos from 71' and 79' on repeat, like we do now.
Nothing gets kids going like reliving stories from 60 years ago during rain delays.
The Nutting Dilema
002526263318252D2F384A0 wrote: As a long suffering and very frustrated Pirate fan; I began thinking about what could be done to almost force Nutting into investing more dollars into the franchise. We all know that he is sitting on a Billion dollar asset. In the 10 years since he has become the majority owner the value of the franchise has increased over 70 million a year.
In addition I would like to know what the Pirates and Steelers are getting for the developmental rights that the City gave them to develop the land between PNC Park and Heinz Field.
I am not sure if this is correct but I believe the Pirates signed a 20 year lease when PNC was built. The lease would expire in 3 years.
What if the City jacked up the rent Nutting pays by say 20-25 million. The City gives Nutting a choice that he can either invest that 25 million in his ML payroll to put the Pirates more towards the median. If he does not the City gets the added resources to use as they wish
The City and the people of Pittsburgh deserve an ownership group committed to trying to win. Not one that is trying to maximize every last dollar from the City and fan base.
I like this thread. I, too, wonder what--if anything--can be done in this regard. I've seen the Pirates putting stuff on Facebook and Twitter the last couple of days promoting their, "No fees" on tickets sale. Never mind the fact that a fee is just a built-in raise in the ticket price that they don't have to call a "raise in ticket prices" per se, but there is a very simple formula for putting butts in seats. It worked in 2013-15. WIN MORE STINKING GAMES!!! Waiving fees is like waving your arm...as you slap your loyal fans right across the face. This latest gimmick is insulting. Want more fans? Win more games.
It's really that simple. Win games, and people will come out and see you play. Watching the Bucs on TV those years was fun. Every game was sold out and the fans were rocking. Field of Dreams was right, "If you build it, they will come." If you build it, they will come..."It," of course, being a competitive team.
I don't want any more bobblehead giveaways. As far as I'm concerned, that's one more thing cluttering up my house. I don't want any more fireworks displays, concerts, free shirt Fridays, hat giveaways, Buccaroos ask the Bucs, guess what's in the treasure chest gimmicks, pierogi races, or anything else. I just want the team that I tune in to watch over 100 times a year to put a competitive product on the field. I want to know they have a fighting chance to compete.
A couple of months ago, I asked a sincere question to the "Nutting is cheap" crowd about what the point of repeating that mantra ad nauseum was. I believe it was Virginia who responded with what I thought was a great answer, and I never acknowledged it. He said that deep down, he hopes someone in the FO reads this board and realizes that even lifelong, diehard Pirates fans are being driven away by a team that either can't, or won't, attempt to put an-MLB quality team on the field. I agree. I've never been a "Nutting is cheap" guy. But, this year more than any other has shown me the light. I fear that in the current state of MLB, with the current ownership we have, if things don't change, we can't compete.
Mr. Nutting, I doubt very seriously that you read this. But, perhaps a staff person does. If that is so, perhaps you can kick the message up the food chain that diehards are getting frustrated. I've been a Pirates fan for as long as I can remember. I still harbor a certain amount of animosity towards Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla, and Andy Van Slyke. If only I had gotten interested in baseball in 1993 instead of 1990-92. I could have been a Cardinals fan, like every other sane person living in Iowa. What might have been. But, alas, they were good; I decided one day in 1990 that I was a Pirates fan and that was all there was to it.
Mr. Nutting, or his staffer, you're driving us away. The reality is that the value of this franchise is directly tied to its competitiveness. Your refusal to field a competitive team (with the exception of three years where the argument can be made that you were more lucky than good) has driven faithful people away from this team. It's crazy to say this, but I almost think they would be better off if the losing streak were still intact and we were looking at year #25 this year. See, 2013-15 if nothing else gave fans a false sense of hope. Now that we're coming to realize that that's what it was, false hope as opposed to authentic hope, fans will begin fleeing from this team in droves.
Last year, bringing in one decent pitcher would have shown an awful lot of good will towards the fans who came out in droves for you for three years, to whom you promised, you PROMISED, you would spend money when the time was right. Mr. Nutting, the time was right last year. And you did nothing. The Pirates can't buy their way to a championship. In fact, I don't want them to. There's no fun in just outspending everyone else. I WANT the Pirates to build a championship team from within and through savvy trades. But when we had that team in place, Mr. Nutting, you did "nutting" to make a play on words, when arguably one move could have won us the division.
On average, if a person lives to be 90 years old, he should see his team win the World Series three times over the course of his life. At this stage, I'll be glad if I live to see one, just ONE World Series championship from the Pirates. (I'm 35...haven't seen one yet.)
Mr. Nutting, I'm sure you're a good man. I'm sure deep down you want to win. These fans who have given you so much desperately deserve this. I promise you sir...if you deliver a world championship to these fans, the celebration the Pens just had will pale in comparison. You will see sellouts every night. You'll see a party unlike anything Pittsburgh has ever seen. I suspect there are Pens fans out there who would trade all three of their recent Cup wins for one Pirates World Series win. I'm one of them.
Mr. Nutting, you are the only person on planet earth with the power to make this happen. Please sir, do so.
In addition I would like to know what the Pirates and Steelers are getting for the developmental rights that the City gave them to develop the land between PNC Park and Heinz Field.
I am not sure if this is correct but I believe the Pirates signed a 20 year lease when PNC was built. The lease would expire in 3 years.
What if the City jacked up the rent Nutting pays by say 20-25 million. The City gives Nutting a choice that he can either invest that 25 million in his ML payroll to put the Pirates more towards the median. If he does not the City gets the added resources to use as they wish
The City and the people of Pittsburgh deserve an ownership group committed to trying to win. Not one that is trying to maximize every last dollar from the City and fan base.
I like this thread. I, too, wonder what--if anything--can be done in this regard. I've seen the Pirates putting stuff on Facebook and Twitter the last couple of days promoting their, "No fees" on tickets sale. Never mind the fact that a fee is just a built-in raise in the ticket price that they don't have to call a "raise in ticket prices" per se, but there is a very simple formula for putting butts in seats. It worked in 2013-15. WIN MORE STINKING GAMES!!! Waiving fees is like waving your arm...as you slap your loyal fans right across the face. This latest gimmick is insulting. Want more fans? Win more games.
It's really that simple. Win games, and people will come out and see you play. Watching the Bucs on TV those years was fun. Every game was sold out and the fans were rocking. Field of Dreams was right, "If you build it, they will come." If you build it, they will come..."It," of course, being a competitive team.
I don't want any more bobblehead giveaways. As far as I'm concerned, that's one more thing cluttering up my house. I don't want any more fireworks displays, concerts, free shirt Fridays, hat giveaways, Buccaroos ask the Bucs, guess what's in the treasure chest gimmicks, pierogi races, or anything else. I just want the team that I tune in to watch over 100 times a year to put a competitive product on the field. I want to know they have a fighting chance to compete.
A couple of months ago, I asked a sincere question to the "Nutting is cheap" crowd about what the point of repeating that mantra ad nauseum was. I believe it was Virginia who responded with what I thought was a great answer, and I never acknowledged it. He said that deep down, he hopes someone in the FO reads this board and realizes that even lifelong, diehard Pirates fans are being driven away by a team that either can't, or won't, attempt to put an-MLB quality team on the field. I agree. I've never been a "Nutting is cheap" guy. But, this year more than any other has shown me the light. I fear that in the current state of MLB, with the current ownership we have, if things don't change, we can't compete.
Mr. Nutting, I doubt very seriously that you read this. But, perhaps a staff person does. If that is so, perhaps you can kick the message up the food chain that diehards are getting frustrated. I've been a Pirates fan for as long as I can remember. I still harbor a certain amount of animosity towards Barry Bonds, Bobby Bonilla, and Andy Van Slyke. If only I had gotten interested in baseball in 1993 instead of 1990-92. I could have been a Cardinals fan, like every other sane person living in Iowa. What might have been. But, alas, they were good; I decided one day in 1990 that I was a Pirates fan and that was all there was to it.
Mr. Nutting, or his staffer, you're driving us away. The reality is that the value of this franchise is directly tied to its competitiveness. Your refusal to field a competitive team (with the exception of three years where the argument can be made that you were more lucky than good) has driven faithful people away from this team. It's crazy to say this, but I almost think they would be better off if the losing streak were still intact and we were looking at year #25 this year. See, 2013-15 if nothing else gave fans a false sense of hope. Now that we're coming to realize that that's what it was, false hope as opposed to authentic hope, fans will begin fleeing from this team in droves.
Last year, bringing in one decent pitcher would have shown an awful lot of good will towards the fans who came out in droves for you for three years, to whom you promised, you PROMISED, you would spend money when the time was right. Mr. Nutting, the time was right last year. And you did nothing. The Pirates can't buy their way to a championship. In fact, I don't want them to. There's no fun in just outspending everyone else. I WANT the Pirates to build a championship team from within and through savvy trades. But when we had that team in place, Mr. Nutting, you did "nutting" to make a play on words, when arguably one move could have won us the division.
On average, if a person lives to be 90 years old, he should see his team win the World Series three times over the course of his life. At this stage, I'll be glad if I live to see one, just ONE World Series championship from the Pirates. (I'm 35...haven't seen one yet.)
Mr. Nutting, I'm sure you're a good man. I'm sure deep down you want to win. These fans who have given you so much desperately deserve this. I promise you sir...if you deliver a world championship to these fans, the celebration the Pens just had will pale in comparison. You will see sellouts every night. You'll see a party unlike anything Pittsburgh has ever seen. I suspect there are Pens fans out there who would trade all three of their recent Cup wins for one Pirates World Series win. I'm one of them.
Mr. Nutting, you are the only person on planet earth with the power to make this happen. Please sir, do so.
The Nutting Dilema
Iowa, very nice and well written post.
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rucker59@gmail.com
The Nutting Dilema
Ia, very good post. A lot of good posts recently reflecting a deep passion for the Pirates, and a growing sense that our passion has "been used" by the FO for the financial gain of Mr Nutting.
I can pretty much guarantee that the FO is realing right now from the fan response. Just today, as a season ticket holder, I've had two new ticket deals pop up in my email from my rep. This comes about as weekend games are as much as 10,000 less than last year. I've heard more than discontent from fans, I hear from fans that have walked away - disgusted, they feel lied to and worse, they feel like they now see that they have NO VALUE in the eyes of the owner. In short, virtually no one believes this organization has ANY actual plan to compete.
People are pretty much stunned by the in-your-face FO attitude this season: Marte out for 1/2 season and Kang out for whole season and not one addition to the roster; no concern from the FO with some of the most embarrassing defense ever played by a MLB team; a bullpen that has blown game after game, with no roster move; a manager than runs a AAAA team on to the field even in the midst of a losing streak. The list could go on and on.
Folks in Pittsburgh no longer give a crap about fireworks, or bobbleheads. But even the gimmicks are now insulting: they can't afford to give out t-shirts, bobbleheads, kids caps or anything else to everyone who shows up - only the 1st 20,000 get them now.
The worst for me is the constant inference that the fans are the ones who have failed. The fans need to do more....
I don't know what to think anymore. Are they totally blind to what's going on? It's like they're determined to destroy any sense of fan relationship. Truly sad.
I can pretty much guarantee that the FO is realing right now from the fan response. Just today, as a season ticket holder, I've had two new ticket deals pop up in my email from my rep. This comes about as weekend games are as much as 10,000 less than last year. I've heard more than discontent from fans, I hear from fans that have walked away - disgusted, they feel lied to and worse, they feel like they now see that they have NO VALUE in the eyes of the owner. In short, virtually no one believes this organization has ANY actual plan to compete.
People are pretty much stunned by the in-your-face FO attitude this season: Marte out for 1/2 season and Kang out for whole season and not one addition to the roster; no concern from the FO with some of the most embarrassing defense ever played by a MLB team; a bullpen that has blown game after game, with no roster move; a manager than runs a AAAA team on to the field even in the midst of a losing streak. The list could go on and on.
Folks in Pittsburgh no longer give a crap about fireworks, or bobbleheads. But even the gimmicks are now insulting: they can't afford to give out t-shirts, bobbleheads, kids caps or anything else to everyone who shows up - only the 1st 20,000 get them now.
The worst for me is the constant inference that the fans are the ones who have failed. The fans need to do more....
I don't know what to think anymore. Are they totally blind to what's going on? It's like they're determined to destroy any sense of fan relationship. Truly sad.
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LumberCo
The Nutting Dilema
when they refused to do what needed done two winters ago I told myself that I am never paying for another ticket, another hotdog, another hat till that POS is gone as owner. still watch the games on TV when I have nothing else going on. will not fully invest my time and emotions when the owner is not "all in"