4F444C4045445F1A1C6B524A4344440548442B0 wrote: I thought most people want the best pitcher to get out of jams? Isn't that Rivero? Why save Rivero for a chance to close the game?
What makes you think Watson would be better as a set up man or first guy in when a starter is in trouble?
I think Watson needs removed as the Closer, but I don't think Rivero should be wasted in that role. I like bringing in the best pitcher so the game isn't lost before the 9th.
I've never said Watson should be the setup man period. I assume your talking about me. Seems your trying to find a way to justify CH moves and if you think he knows what he's doing then that's your opinion but come on Watson has been a failure as a closer from the day he was put in that role. He was a very good pitcher a couple of years ago but that was then this is now.
Hurdle just refuses to face the facts and it's been going on for almost a year now. Watson should not be the closer and most folks would have noticed that after a few times out and watching him just getting hammered. Hurdle just won't except the obvious until we get burned time and time again. It's a shame we could have won many more games but for CH being just stubborn or stupid, this team deserves better and the fans certainly do, in my opinion.
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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steve49
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
606B636F6A6B703533447D656C6B6B2A676B040 wrote: I thought most people want the best pitcher to get out of jams? Isn't that Rivero? Why save Rivero for a chance to close the game?
What makes you think Watson would be better as a set up man or first guy in when a starter is in trouble?
I think Watson needs removed as the Closer, but I don't think Rivero should be wasted in that role. I like bringing in the best pitcher so the game isn't lost before the 9th.
Most teams have their best RP in the closer role. That's why the marketplace is much higher for RP's that close than those that set up. About the only time this is not correct is when a young P out pitches a successful closer, but usually the better guy ends up with the job. Rivero has no doubt earned the closer role with the Pirates and he should have the opportunity to earn the compensation that accompanies that role.
What makes you think Watson would be better as a set up man or first guy in when a starter is in trouble?
I think Watson needs removed as the Closer, but I don't think Rivero should be wasted in that role. I like bringing in the best pitcher so the game isn't lost before the 9th.
Most teams have their best RP in the closer role. That's why the marketplace is much higher for RP's that close than those that set up. About the only time this is not correct is when a young P out pitches a successful closer, but usually the better guy ends up with the job. Rivero has no doubt earned the closer role with the Pirates and he should have the opportunity to earn the compensation that accompanies that role.
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Bobster21
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
50484A4D4D5A4B4C515046230 wrote: Glasnow in the bullpen? He has more base runners than anyone. Glasnow needs to go to the minors.
Watson would be just as bad in the 6th or 7th inning. Wait, maybe he doesn't like the pressure like McCutchen?
Nicasio probably needs stretched out. Maybe he can go longer?
Hurdle said Leblanc has better splits against righties and the Orioles have been reverse split guys. At least he had a reason.
Totally disagree that Glasnow should go to the minors, he should go to the pen. The guy can throw 100 mph, has a good curve/breaking ball. He just needs to get his feet on the ground. Nolan Ryan started out in the bullpen, many great pitchers started there.
If you think Hurdle had a good reason to bring in LeBlanc, you believe he had a good reason to bring in Watson. Now that's ridiculous.
Glasnow is far from Nolan Ryan. Jeff Locke started in the bullpen too. Glasnow doesn't throw strikes. He is one of the wildest pitches I have ever seen. No way would I want him coming into a game with men on base. Glasnow isn't ready for that.
I didn't say it was a good reason. I said at least he had a reason. If you noticed, I questioned bringing in Leblanc when it occurred.
In The 9th, I am still bringing in Watson up two runs. Who are you bringing in with the options available?
You obviously never saw Ryan pitch when he was 21ish. He was wild as he could be that's why the Mets traded him. I don't think we know what Glasnow is but I'm sure not ready to give up on him. I believe CH is totally misusing him, and may be risking his career. Again I will say it, put him in the pen, bring him in low pressure situations, let him get some confidence and lets see what he can do. He has all the tools just needs some confidence, that's my opinion.
Nolan Ryan as a 21-year old rookie started 18 of his 21 games. He was wild but gave up only 93 hits in 134 innings and had a good ERA of 3.09. His HR rate (12 in 134 IP) was 0.8 per 9 IP. He was with the Mets 3 more years after that. ERA was always below 4.00. Walks were always high but hits/innings was always low. The only thing Glasnow has in common is the high walk rate. His hits/innings rate is terrible as is his 6.97 ERA. His HR rate (10 in 50 IP) of 1.8 per 9 IP is more than twice Ryan's. Ryan's walks were a significant concern but he was otherwise tough to hit, gave up few hits or runs. Glasnow either walks the guy or gives up a hit. Then he gives up the run. He's very ineffective. I don't know how that would change as a middle reliever. He would just let those games get out of hand. He can't hit his spots. He's useless to this team. Let him work on that in AAA. If he can't master his pitches maybe as the Emperor would say, "It's time to find his life's work."
Watson would be just as bad in the 6th or 7th inning. Wait, maybe he doesn't like the pressure like McCutchen?
Nicasio probably needs stretched out. Maybe he can go longer?
Hurdle said Leblanc has better splits against righties and the Orioles have been reverse split guys. At least he had a reason.
Totally disagree that Glasnow should go to the minors, he should go to the pen. The guy can throw 100 mph, has a good curve/breaking ball. He just needs to get his feet on the ground. Nolan Ryan started out in the bullpen, many great pitchers started there.
If you think Hurdle had a good reason to bring in LeBlanc, you believe he had a good reason to bring in Watson. Now that's ridiculous.
Glasnow is far from Nolan Ryan. Jeff Locke started in the bullpen too. Glasnow doesn't throw strikes. He is one of the wildest pitches I have ever seen. No way would I want him coming into a game with men on base. Glasnow isn't ready for that.
I didn't say it was a good reason. I said at least he had a reason. If you noticed, I questioned bringing in Leblanc when it occurred.
In The 9th, I am still bringing in Watson up two runs. Who are you bringing in with the options available?
You obviously never saw Ryan pitch when he was 21ish. He was wild as he could be that's why the Mets traded him. I don't think we know what Glasnow is but I'm sure not ready to give up on him. I believe CH is totally misusing him, and may be risking his career. Again I will say it, put him in the pen, bring him in low pressure situations, let him get some confidence and lets see what he can do. He has all the tools just needs some confidence, that's my opinion.
Nolan Ryan as a 21-year old rookie started 18 of his 21 games. He was wild but gave up only 93 hits in 134 innings and had a good ERA of 3.09. His HR rate (12 in 134 IP) was 0.8 per 9 IP. He was with the Mets 3 more years after that. ERA was always below 4.00. Walks were always high but hits/innings was always low. The only thing Glasnow has in common is the high walk rate. His hits/innings rate is terrible as is his 6.97 ERA. His HR rate (10 in 50 IP) of 1.8 per 9 IP is more than twice Ryan's. Ryan's walks were a significant concern but he was otherwise tough to hit, gave up few hits or runs. Glasnow either walks the guy or gives up a hit. Then he gives up the run. He's very ineffective. I don't know how that would change as a middle reliever. He would just let those games get out of hand. He can't hit his spots. He's useless to this team. Let him work on that in AAA. If he can't master his pitches maybe as the Emperor would say, "It's time to find his life's work."
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Bobster21
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
0A2D3C383D201F2B3C3D3D20590 wrote: Absolutely sickening. It's no surprise anymore. Watson is not a good closer and it's absolutely unreal that Rivero is not the closer now based on how well he has pitched and his overall numbers.
Watson has blown 3 of his last 4 chances and given up a run in 2 of his saves. His save rate is only 71%. When asked to protect a 1-run lead he's saved 5 and blown 3. That's only a 62% success rate. Saves shouldn't be that difficult. You are asked to pitch one essentially clean inning but often with a 2 or 3 run lead that still allows you to mess up but still get the save if you don't mess up too badly. Rivero has been figuratively saving games by getting out of jams even tho he's not literally being awarded the official save stat. Moving him to closer should preserve 9th inning leads but without him putting out earlier fires there may be fewer of those 9th inning leads to protect. It's a no win situation caused by Watson's ineffectiveness. I would be tempted to at least briefly try Nicasio as closer. If he could protect 9th inning leads it would enable Rivero to continue to supply those leads by putting out earlier fires. And if Nicasio failed as closer, then Rivero would be the obvious and necessary solution, although weakening the team in Rivero's current role. I know this is way too far out of the box and will never be tried. But that's what I would do.
Watson has blown 3 of his last 4 chances and given up a run in 2 of his saves. His save rate is only 71%. When asked to protect a 1-run lead he's saved 5 and blown 3. That's only a 62% success rate. Saves shouldn't be that difficult. You are asked to pitch one essentially clean inning but often with a 2 or 3 run lead that still allows you to mess up but still get the save if you don't mess up too badly. Rivero has been figuratively saving games by getting out of jams even tho he's not literally being awarded the official save stat. Moving him to closer should preserve 9th inning leads but without him putting out earlier fires there may be fewer of those 9th inning leads to protect. It's a no win situation caused by Watson's ineffectiveness. I would be tempted to at least briefly try Nicasio as closer. If he could protect 9th inning leads it would enable Rivero to continue to supply those leads by putting out earlier fires. And if Nicasio failed as closer, then Rivero would be the obvious and necessary solution, although weakening the team in Rivero's current role. I know this is way too far out of the box and will never be tried. But that's what I would do.
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ScottinMass
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:26 am
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
I am also in the camp of leaving Rivero in his role as the game can be won or lost in the 7th or 8th inning. Let him continue to do his thing. I would use Nicasio as the 9th inning guy until he proves he can't do it. Hudson/Watson/LeBlanc can have the 6th and/or 7th.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
664B46575041561615240 wrote: Absolutely sickening. It's no surprise anymore. Watson is not a good closer and it's absolutely unreal that Rivero is not the closer now based on how well he has pitched and his overall numbers.
Watson has blown 3 of his last 4 chances and given up a run in 2 of his saves. His save rate is only 71%. When asked to protect a 1-run lead he's saved 5 and blown 3. That's only a 62% success rate. Saves shouldn't be that difficult. You are asked to pitch one essentially clean inning but often with a 2 or 3 run lead that still allows you to mess up but still get the save if you don't mess up too badly. Rivero has been figuratively saving games by getting out of jams even tho he's not literally being awarded the official save stat. Moving him to closer should preserve 9th inning leads but without him putting out earlier fires there may be fewer of those 9th inning leads to protect. It's a no win situation caused by Watson's ineffectiveness. I would be tempted to at least briefly try Nicasio as closer. If he could protect 9th inning leads it would enable Rivero to continue to supply those leads by putting out earlier fires. And if Nicasio failed as closer, then Rivero would be the obvious and necessary solution, although weakening the team in Rivero's current role. I know this is way too far out of the box and will never be tried. But that's what I would do.
I agree with your statement that Rivero shouldn't be "Closer." I think people counter their own arguments that the best pitcher shouldn't be stuck in the 9th inning when they say that.
I think Watson could still be effective but he sure isn't right now. I'd make give him a "brake" the next few times and hand it to Nicasio like you say.
Edit--just to make fun of myself saying "brake" instead of "break" and in quotes for emphasis at that.
Watson has blown 3 of his last 4 chances and given up a run in 2 of his saves. His save rate is only 71%. When asked to protect a 1-run lead he's saved 5 and blown 3. That's only a 62% success rate. Saves shouldn't be that difficult. You are asked to pitch one essentially clean inning but often with a 2 or 3 run lead that still allows you to mess up but still get the save if you don't mess up too badly. Rivero has been figuratively saving games by getting out of jams even tho he's not literally being awarded the official save stat. Moving him to closer should preserve 9th inning leads but without him putting out earlier fires there may be fewer of those 9th inning leads to protect. It's a no win situation caused by Watson's ineffectiveness. I would be tempted to at least briefly try Nicasio as closer. If he could protect 9th inning leads it would enable Rivero to continue to supply those leads by putting out earlier fires. And if Nicasio failed as closer, then Rivero would be the obvious and necessary solution, although weakening the team in Rivero's current role. I know this is way too far out of the box and will never be tried. But that's what I would do.
I agree with your statement that Rivero shouldn't be "Closer." I think people counter their own arguments that the best pitcher shouldn't be stuck in the 9th inning when they say that.
I think Watson could still be effective but he sure isn't right now. I'd make give him a "brake" the next few times and hand it to Nicasio like you say.
Edit--just to make fun of myself saying "brake" instead of "break" and in quotes for emphasis at that.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
684548595E4F58181B2A0 wrote: Watson has blown 3 of his last 4 chances and given up a run in 2 of his saves. His save rate is only 71%. When asked to protect a 1-run lead he's saved 5 and blown 3. That's only a 62% success rate. Saves shouldn't be that difficult. You are asked to pitch one essentially clean inning but often with a 2 or 3 run lead that still allows you to mess up but still get the save if you don't mess up too badly. Rivero has been figuratively saving games by getting out of jams even tho he's not literally being awarded the official save stat. Moving him to closer should preserve 9th inning leads but without him putting out earlier fires there may be fewer of those 9th inning leads to protect. It's a no win situation caused by Watson's ineffectiveness. I would be tempted to at least briefly try Nicasio as closer. If he could protect 9th inning leads it would enable Rivero to continue to supply those leads by putting out earlier fires. And if Nicasio failed as closer, then Rivero would be the obvious and necessary solution, although weakening the team in Rivero's current role. I know this is way too far out of the box and will never be tried. But that's what I would do.
I agree. Good post. You said it better than me. Moving Rivero would just weaken his current role.
The Pirates used their four best relief pitchers in this game. Two of them gave up runs. Did it really matter when they were used?
I agree. Good post. You said it better than me. Moving Rivero would just weaken his current role.
The Pirates used their four best relief pitchers in this game. Two of them gave up runs. Did it really matter when they were used?
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
272C24282D2C377274033A222B2C2C6D202C430 wrote: I just don't know what Prince or Searage would do differently? There was no weird strategy that blew this game. It was his Closer.
I think Watson throws too many strikes. I don't like a lefty Closer to begin with, but not sure what to do. I would hate to move Rivero out of his Stopper role. I don't think it is mental for Watson. He just looks over used and it caught up to him this year.
You don't like lefty closer? No Watson and no Rivero to close?
Sounds like you are saying Pirate management failed. I don't think management knows what to do either and I sure don't.
Watson, Hudson Marinez are problems in the bullpen. None are reliable this season. A big league bullpen can't be successful with 3 arms out there that are not dependable, especially with a team like the Bucs that is inconsistent on offense.
I think Watson throws too many strikes. I don't like a lefty Closer to begin with, but not sure what to do. I would hate to move Rivero out of his Stopper role. I don't think it is mental for Watson. He just looks over used and it caught up to him this year.
You don't like lefty closer? No Watson and no Rivero to close?
Sounds like you are saying Pirate management failed. I don't think management knows what to do either and I sure don't.
Watson, Hudson Marinez are problems in the bullpen. None are reliable this season. A big league bullpen can't be successful with 3 arms out there that are not dependable, especially with a team like the Bucs that is inconsistent on offense.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
There are more right-handed batters in baseball. Of course there are a few exceptions and Rivero can become one of them, but Watson is not one.
That Franco, Wagner, Chapman, Myers type players are very rare. Out of 50 players who have over 200 saves, only six were left handed.
That Franco, Wagner, Chapman, Myers type players are very rare. Out of 50 players who have over 200 saves, only six were left handed.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
June 6, D-Day, vs Orioles
163031263020530 wrote: I just don't know what Prince or Searage would do differently? There was no weird strategy that blew this game. It was his Closer.
I think Watson throws too many strikes. I don't like a lefty Closer to begin with, but not sure what to do. I would hate to move Rivero out of his Stopper role. I don't think it is mental for Watson. He just looks over used and it caught up to him this year.
You don't like lefty closer? No Watson and no Rivero to close?
Sounds like you are saying Pirate management failed. I don't think management knows what to do either and I sure don't.
Watson, Hudson Marinez are problems in the bullpen. None are reliable this season. A big league bullpen can't be successful with 3 arms out there that are not dependable, especially with a team like the Bucs that is inconsistent on offense.
I'm hopeful for Daniel Hudson though, one outing aside he hasn't been too bad for the past several weeks. Well, he's been better than he was at the start of the season anyhow.
I think Watson throws too many strikes. I don't like a lefty Closer to begin with, but not sure what to do. I would hate to move Rivero out of his Stopper role. I don't think it is mental for Watson. He just looks over used and it caught up to him this year.
You don't like lefty closer? No Watson and no Rivero to close?
Sounds like you are saying Pirate management failed. I don't think management knows what to do either and I sure don't.
Watson, Hudson Marinez are problems in the bullpen. None are reliable this season. A big league bullpen can't be successful with 3 arms out there that are not dependable, especially with a team like the Bucs that is inconsistent on offense.
I'm hopeful for Daniel Hudson though, one outing aside he hasn't been too bad for the past several weeks. Well, he's been better than he was at the start of the season anyhow.