694F4E594F5F2C0 wrote:
I still haven't figured out if Nutting has become a fan and at least wants to win at some level or if he sees the Pirates as mostly a way to make money. It seems like it could be both but that is more difficult path.
I absolutely believe he prefers to win. However, he puts strict financial constraints on the effort to do so. I think his ideal scenario is for NH to take his shoestring budget and make the Pirates contenders. The desire to win is always there. But the financial commitment is minimal.
Sale of the Marlins
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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johnfluharty
Sale of the Marlins
684548595E4F58181B2A0 wrote:
I still haven't figured out if Nutting has become a fan and at least wants to win at some level or if he sees the Pirates as mostly a way to make money. It seems like it could be both but that is more difficult path.
I absolutely believe he prefers to win. However, he puts strict financial constraints on the effort to do so. I think his ideal scenario is for NH to take his shoestring budget and make the Pirates contenders. The desire to win is always there. But the financial commitment is minimal.
Agreed, Bobster.
I still haven't figured out if Nutting has become a fan and at least wants to win at some level or if he sees the Pirates as mostly a way to make money. It seems like it could be both but that is more difficult path.
I absolutely believe he prefers to win. However, he puts strict financial constraints on the effort to do so. I think his ideal scenario is for NH to take his shoestring budget and make the Pirates contenders. The desire to win is always there. But the financial commitment is minimal.
Agreed, Bobster.
Sale of the Marlins
022F22333425327271400 wrote:
I still haven't figured out if Nutting has become a fan and at least wants to win at some level or if he sees the Pirates as mostly a way to make money. It seems like it could be both but that is more difficult path.
I absolutely believe he prefers to win. However, he puts strict financial constraints on the effort to do so. I think his ideal scenario is for NH to take his shoestring budget and make the Pirates contenders. The desire to win is always there. But the financial commitment is minimal.
Yes. This. It's not like in 2013, Bob Nutting was up in his owner's suite saying, "Dang it! Quit winning games!" But, when push came to shove, as just one example, who did he replace A.J. Burnett with? Edinson Volquez (who admittedly had a good year in 2014). But then when push came to shove again, who did he replace Burnett with again post-2015? Jon Niese, for whom in order to acquire we had to part with our starting second baseman, who is now the starting third baseman for one of our chief rivals.
If they accidentally win, great, but I don't see much if any pro-active steps to insure that they win. In other words, there's no intentionality to it. In 2013, Liriano, Martin, Locke, and Burnett all had great years. In 2015, Cervelli, Burnett, and Cole (to this point anyway) all had career years. In my mind, needing a bunch of guys to have career years in order to compete is not a sound strategy. It might happen, but probably won't.
I still haven't figured out if Nutting has become a fan and at least wants to win at some level or if he sees the Pirates as mostly a way to make money. It seems like it could be both but that is more difficult path.
I absolutely believe he prefers to win. However, he puts strict financial constraints on the effort to do so. I think his ideal scenario is for NH to take his shoestring budget and make the Pirates contenders. The desire to win is always there. But the financial commitment is minimal.
Yes. This. It's not like in 2013, Bob Nutting was up in his owner's suite saying, "Dang it! Quit winning games!" But, when push came to shove, as just one example, who did he replace A.J. Burnett with? Edinson Volquez (who admittedly had a good year in 2014). But then when push came to shove again, who did he replace Burnett with again post-2015? Jon Niese, for whom in order to acquire we had to part with our starting second baseman, who is now the starting third baseman for one of our chief rivals.
If they accidentally win, great, but I don't see much if any pro-active steps to insure that they win. In other words, there's no intentionality to it. In 2013, Liriano, Martin, Locke, and Burnett all had great years. In 2015, Cervelli, Burnett, and Cole (to this point anyway) all had career years. In my mind, needing a bunch of guys to have career years in order to compete is not a sound strategy. It might happen, but probably won't.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Sale of the Marlins
Walker for Niese wasn't purely a money move. Yeah, the Pirates saved $1.5 million, but it was a certainly a baseball trade. Walker was being replaced by Harrison and the Pirates needed pitching.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Sale of the Marlins
48434B474243581D1B6C554D444343024F432C0 wrote: Walker for Niese wasn't purely a money move. Yeah, the Pirates saved $1.5 million, but it was a certainly a baseball trade. Walker was being replaced by Harrison and the Pirates needed pitching.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sale of the Marlins
11191A2D3B1E3936580 wrote: Walker for Niese wasn't purely a money move. Yeah, the Pirates saved $1.5 million, but it was a certainly a baseball trade. Walker was being replaced by Harrison and the Pirates needed pitching.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
A VERY VERY BAD baseball trade.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
A VERY VERY BAD baseball trade.
Sale of the Marlins
5C5B4D454B5C1B176E49434F4742004D41432E0 wrote: Walker for Niese wasn't purely a money move. Yeah, the Pirates saved $1.5 million, but it was a certainly a baseball trade. Walker was being replaced by Harrison and the Pirates needed pitching.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
A VERY VERY BAD baseball trade.
and the years of control supposedly added to value of Niese although those were moot by mid-June.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Not saying it was a salary dump. I'm saying, as many did when it was made, that it was a major, and I mean MAJOR downgrade in the rotation between 2015 and 2016.
A VERY VERY BAD baseball trade.
and the years of control supposedly added to value of Niese although those were moot by mid-June.
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Bobster21
Sale of the Marlins
555E565A5F5E450006714850595E5E1F525E310 wrote: Walker for Niese wasn't purely a money move. Yeah, the Pirates saved $1.5 million, but it was a certainly a baseball trade. Walker was being replaced by Harrison and the Pirates needed pitching.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Walker didn't need to be replaced by Harrison. Harrison did well in a super utility role and had over 400 ABs. When Walker was dealt, the Pirates had to fill Harrison's role and acquired S-Rod to do that. So don't make it sound like Walker was pushed out by Harrison. Stop with the revisionist history to defend every FO move.
The trade didn't work out at all as Harrison wasn't very good and Niese was awful, but it was not a salary dump as some like to call it.
Walker didn't need to be replaced by Harrison. Harrison did well in a super utility role and had over 400 ABs. When Walker was dealt, the Pirates had to fill Harrison's role and acquired S-Rod to do that. So don't make it sound like Walker was pushed out by Harrison. Stop with the revisionist history to defend every FO move.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Sale of the Marlins
Yes, Walker was pushed out by Harrison. The Pirates paid him starter money, he is younger, and wasn't breaking down. And he has more range on defense.
If Harrison wasn't given that deal, I don't know if Walker would have been moved. Once Harrison signed, we (ok, at least I did) knew that was the end to Walker. I wish I could find Walker's quote/reaction because he knew too. Harrison wasn't going to be a bench player anymore.
If Harrison wasn't given that deal, I don't know if Walker would have been moved. Once Harrison signed, we (ok, at least I did) knew that was the end to Walker. I wish I could find Walker's quote/reaction because he knew too. Harrison wasn't going to be a bench player anymore.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sale of the Marlins
Walker was gone with or without Josh. That was plain, there was no intention to resign Walker. So Harrison did not push Neil out, had nothing to do with the decision to move him. Harrison was simply the guy that was going to replace Walker.