One of the few genuine highlights of this season for me has been watching Josh Bell and Adam Frazier establish their credentials as major league hitters. It's exciting to think that both will be even better next year and be significant contributors for many years to come.
On the other side of this coin however is their defense. Both have really struggled. Bell's .985 fielding percentage at first base while it's not at Pedro's 2015 .978 level is well below both Jaso (.995) and Freese (.992). Although he's had fewer games in the outfield his fielding there hasn't been impressive either at .923.
Frazier is even more of a concern. His fielding percentage of .955 at second base compares unfavorably to Harrison (.989) and Rodriguez (1.000). Frazier's outfield defense is no better as his .933 fielding percentage is in stark contrast compared to Matt Joyce's errorless season in the outfield.
While I know that both Bell's and Frazier's sample sizes at the MLB level are very small and fielding percentage is not the greatest measure of fielding competence, the large number of errors that both of these players have made in a relatively short period of time is disconcerting to me when I think of a possible right side of the 2017 Pirates infield being manned by that duo.
Anyone have any information that might give me some optimism that either one of these guys will eventually be good defensive players at the major league level? I'd appreciate any insights that anyone might have in this regard!
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
NH assembled this team initially on the basis of pitching and defense. It will be telling what he does with Bell and Frazier. Given Bell's power I would expect they try to work around him - maybe have late-game defensive replacements. I would not be surprised to see Frazier traded, maybe an add-in for a starting pitcher.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
I think their defense has been terrible too.
Bell has looked awkward like Alvarez did last year. Even fielding ground balls he doesn't look comfortable. I really don't understand as these are professional athletes.
Frazier isn't that bad as his numbers show. He just looks out of position and doesn't know where to go. But Frazier looks very athletic to me. He isn't close to Harrison or Rodriguez, but he should at least be average in my opinion.
With that said, I am not concerned. An error can be crucial at times, but they are still pretty rare overall. Sometimes they can be washed out by the next batter and not matter. Still stinks, but they all don't hurt other than some extra pitches at times.
As long as these two hit, they will play. The Pirates can't really go with Jaso full time next year at 1B. That has to be Bell's position to lose. I don't even know if Jaso will be back. Frazier can be a super sub or split time if Harrison struggles again. The defense is strong in other positions to hopefully outweigh these two.
Bell has looked awkward like Alvarez did last year. Even fielding ground balls he doesn't look comfortable. I really don't understand as these are professional athletes.
Frazier isn't that bad as his numbers show. He just looks out of position and doesn't know where to go. But Frazier looks very athletic to me. He isn't close to Harrison or Rodriguez, but he should at least be average in my opinion.
With that said, I am not concerned. An error can be crucial at times, but they are still pretty rare overall. Sometimes they can be washed out by the next batter and not matter. Still stinks, but they all don't hurt other than some extra pitches at times.
As long as these two hit, they will play. The Pirates can't really go with Jaso full time next year at 1B. That has to be Bell's position to lose. I don't even know if Jaso will be back. Frazier can be a super sub or split time if Harrison struggles again. The defense is strong in other positions to hopefully outweigh these two.
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
A large part of my concern is that generally the Pirate defense is not strong in many areas (even excluding Bell and Frazier), and that we'll likely see a very young and inexperienced starting pitching staff next year that will need all the help they can get defensively. Having a brutal defense behind a young pitcher can be a confidence destroyer.
As for the Pirates defense by player and position I would rank Marte (LF) as excellent, Mercer (SS) and Harrison (2B) as above average, Cervelli (C) and Kang (3B) as average, Cutch (CF), Polanco (RF) and Jaso (1B) below average. Replacing an above average Harrison with Frazier, and a below average Jaso with a worse fielding Bell doesn't help an already mediocre defense.
As for the Pirates defense by player and position I would rank Marte (LF) as excellent, Mercer (SS) and Harrison (2B) as above average, Cervelli (C) and Kang (3B) as average, Cutch (CF), Polanco (RF) and Jaso (1B) below average. Replacing an above average Harrison with Frazier, and a below average Jaso with a worse fielding Bell doesn't help an already mediocre defense.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
It depends on how you rate or judge above average and who you are comparing them to (league, teammates).
Kang and Mercer are very good. So is Freese. Harrison is very good too. Marte is at the top. Cervelli is good too.
Polanco has the arm, but doesn't look smooth. McCutchen has no arm and had his worse year, but I would still consider him average or above.
Jaso was good in actual catching, fielding but had some mental lapse.
Overall, I don't think the Pirates are that bad with my eyes. I don't really know how they compare to other teams, but it is never defense vs defense in baseball. Pitching and Hitting are more important in my opinion as they are harder to do.
Kang and Mercer are very good. So is Freese. Harrison is very good too. Marte is at the top. Cervelli is good too.
Polanco has the arm, but doesn't look smooth. McCutchen has no arm and had his worse year, but I would still consider him average or above.
Jaso was good in actual catching, fielding but had some mental lapse.
Overall, I don't think the Pirates are that bad with my eyes. I don't really know how they compare to other teams, but it is never defense vs defense in baseball. Pitching and Hitting are more important in my opinion as they are harder to do.
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
Pitching and hitting are easier to see and to understand, certainly. The stats for defense, at least the ones we see, are not nearly as refined as those for offense. But a mental goof can cost the team two or three runs and wear out a pitcher well before he gets to the inning goal set for him. The Pirate fielders had a lot of mental goofs. Polanco dropping a fly ball last night extended an inning and resulted in two more runs scoring. And certainly changed the complexion of the game. Personally, I think they should have at least average fielders out there, especially since they were built around pitching and defense. Bell and Frazier aren't average (keeping in mind I've seen only limited play from them so far). On that eye test front, Pedro looked a lot more fluid and natural around first than Bell. He just developed some psychological block to catching the ball.
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ArnoldRothstein
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
Frazier had a very unusual rise through the minors. Full time shortstop in 2014, off year with the bat and lots of errors. Then treated as a utility guy in 2015-16, mostly in the outfield. I'd say give him half a season to a season at Indy focusing on one position, second or maybe third. If they've already decided he just can't play the infield, I'd probably try to find someone who thinks he can and trade him to them.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
33312B2D3B5E0 wrote: Pitching and hitting are easier to see and to understand, certainly. The stats for defense, at least the ones we see, are not nearly as refined as those for offense. But a mental goof can cost the team two or three runs and wear out a pitcher well before he gets to the inning goal set for him. The Pirate fielders had a lot of mental goofs. Polanco dropping a fly ball last night extended an inning and resulted in two more runs scoring. And certainly changed the complexion of the game. Personally, I think they should have at least average fielders out there, especially since they were built around pitching and defense. Bell and Frazier aren't average (keeping in mind I've seen only limited play from them so far). On that eye test front, Pedro looked a lot more fluid and natural around first than Bell. He just developed some psychological block to catching the ball.
I totally agree with this.
I hate mental errors. They shouldn't happen. I do take those into account when examining a player. You might not see them on paper, but they can be very costly. Also why I think Kang and Mercer are better defensive players.
I agree about Bell too. I am really surprised about his defensive skills so far.
I totally agree with this.
I hate mental errors. They shouldn't happen. I do take those into account when examining a player. You might not see them on paper, but they can be very costly. Also why I think Kang and Mercer are better defensive players.
I agree about Bell too. I am really surprised about his defensive skills so far.
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
05362A2B2820162B302C3730212D2A440 wrote: Frazier had a very unusual rise through the minors. Full time shortstop in 2014, off year with the bat and lots of errors. Then treated as a utility guy in 2015-16, mostly in the outfield. I'd say give him half a season to a season at Indy focusing on one position, second or maybe third. If they've already decided he just can't play the infield, I'd probably try to find someone who thinks he can and trade him to them.
I think this is a good point. He was a regular shortstop until partway through his time at Altoona. This year he played 70 innings at second for Indy and the rest of his time in the outfield. Seems like the Bucs are not high on him as an infielder.
I think this is a good point. He was a regular shortstop until partway through his time at Altoona. This year he played 70 innings at second for Indy and the rest of his time in the outfield. Seems like the Bucs are not high on him as an infielder.
Bell, Frazier and the case for the Defense
133534233525560 wrote: Frazier had a very unusual rise through the minors. Full time shortstop in 2014, off year with the bat and lots of errors. Then treated as a utility guy in 2015-16, mostly in the outfield. I'd say give him half a season to a season at Indy focusing on one position, second or maybe third. If they've already decided he just can't play the infield, I'd probably try to find someone who thinks he can and trade him to them.
I think this is a good point. He was a regular shortstop until partway through his time at Altoona. This year he played 70 innings at second for Indy and the rest of his time in the outfield. Seems like the Bucs are not high on him as an infielder.
Moroff was their MiLB player of the year when Frazier was with the Curve. So understandable that he didn't get a lot of time at 2B. Moroff is a good fielder but doesn't have the bat that Frazier has. However, you may see them keep Moroff over Frazier should a decent trade materialize.
I think this is a good point. He was a regular shortstop until partway through his time at Altoona. This year he played 70 innings at second for Indy and the rest of his time in the outfield. Seems like the Bucs are not high on him as an infielder.
Moroff was their MiLB player of the year when Frazier was with the Curve. So understandable that he didn't get a lot of time at 2B. Moroff is a good fielder but doesn't have the bat that Frazier has. However, you may see them keep Moroff over Frazier should a decent trade materialize.