OnlyBucs

Yea, Iowa you are correct. I read somewhere that Nutting has no intentions of selling. Sad as I grew up watching the Pirates as a proud and competitive franchise (early 60's) and even into my early 20's they were always in contention. Then they suffered through the Drug Scandal and finally rebounded in the early 90's...I was looking at some old Pirate Schedules from the early 2001 season. Wow, the team was bad then. We actually have a decent team now. Just wish the front office would stop all the BS and get behind winning...Sorry to rant, but dang I hate loosing....



Bucs Fan In Ga...Beat'em Bucs!


BFIG posted this in the thread on Luplow, and I didn't want to derail that thread into yet another commentary on Bob Nutting. Like Hurdle, I'm sure Nutting is probably a decent guy. I just don't think he truly desires to do everything in his power to put the best team on the field for 162 games.



BFIG, I believe this is the article you were referencing. http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/3769 ... ting-money



For my money, this might be the single most depressing thing I've read about the Pirates, because if true, then Lustig is right...the Pirates will never be a consistent winner, or at least until Nutting goes all Mike Illitch on us and realizes that his time in this life is running short and he wants a championship before he passes on.



In short, I don't see things improving as long as Bob Nutting owns the team. I'm sure he's a stand-up guy and I give him credit for keeping the franchise in Pittsburgh, building PNC, and restoring the North Shore. But, I fear that as long as he owns the franchise, we'll never see a winner here, at least not consistently.



I think a compelling case that 2013-15 were more accidental than anything. Martin, Liriano, and Burnett all had massive turnarounds, to say nothing of Grilli, Melancon, Caminero, Walker, Alvarez, etc. In a certain sense, they lucked into Liriano going from unreliable guy who can't throw strikes to a serious CY contender for three years. Martin went from being a serviceable catcher, to arguably the top catcher in the National League. Burnett resurrected his career. But, did they count on that? I don't know. Travis Sawchick wrote a book about it. Maybe they were smarter than everyone else. But, that competitive advantage has dried up. Everyone is into statistical analysis, shifting, and all that.



But, one thing has remained constant. The Pirates either can't, or won't, pay market value for MLB talent. That means four things are a constant reality.



1. The Pirates won't pay market rate for free agents



2. Albatross contracts hurt the Pirates more than they hurt other teams. For example, the Red Sox recently cut Pablo Sandoval, eating something like $62 million. Such a deal would cripple the Pirates for a decade. The Red Sox just write it off as the cost of doing business. Now, there's serious talk of whether or not Andrew McCutchen's option next year will be an "albatross." For most other MLB teams, there wouldn't be any question as to whether or not that option will be exercise. (For the record, I believe the Pirates will exercise that option if he isn't traded).



3. The Pirates trade away good players when they get too expensive, rather than risk losing them to free agency. To some extent, I would wager that every team does this. No team signs all of its free agents. But the Pirates do this CONSISTENTLY. It's only a matter of time before we repeat the current cycle not with McCutchen and Cole, but with Marte, Polanco, and Taillon.



4. Because of the Pirates constant need to replenish their MLB roster with younger, cheaper options, they are that much more reluctant than other teams to trade prospects. Again, let's use the Red Sox as an example. They traded the top prospect in baseball in Yoan Moncada for Chris Sale. The Pirates have their share of top prospects, though none who are receiving consideration for the #1 spot. But, let's just say they did. Would the Pirates have considered trading Moncada? Absolutely not. Heck, I'd bet that Glasnow (despite his MLB struggles), Meadows, and Keller are all untouchable, or at least as close to untouchable as possible. Even if we had 65 wins right now and were a lock to make the postseason, those guys would be off limits.



In short, we can't compete in the FA market, we can't compete in the trade market. We used to be able to compete in the draft (see Josh Bell), but MLB took that option away. I don't know enough about the international market to make an educated comment there. Point being...I'm rather discouraged right now. I'm wondering if there is any hope in rooting for this team anymore. The point is to win the World Series. If we have literally no shot due to the imbalanced playing field and an owner who refused to lose money, then I see little reason to continue following the team. I have far better things to do with my time than invest in something that is hopeless, meaning literally "without hope."



Someone please tell me why I'm wrong.

The only major changes I would make is that the Bucs can compete in the draft and in international signings.  Both are based on talent evaluation rather than resources as spending is capped on both.



I think it also shows that the Bucs should go for it all now and then rather than trying to contend year in and year out. Hopefully they can contend year in and year out but take a risk for this year and then make adjustments later if needed.

7A5C5D4A5C4C3F0 wrote:

I think it also shows that the Bucs should go for it all now and then rather than trying to contend year in and year out.  Hopefully they can contend year in and year out but take a risk for this year and then make adjustments later if needed.


If I'm Nutting I take that advice. He runs a profitable business. He realized that there was $ in replacing the 20 year losing streak with a competitive team. Problem is, he doesn't want to spend revenue to make them more competitive. And he sees a free-spending Cubs team vastly under-performing this year but can be expected to dominate the division for years to come. His cheapness has contributed (along with Kang and Marte) to a 50-52 record in late July but, miraculously, that's still good enough to challenge for the division this year. That gives him the unexpected opportunity to pick up 1 or 2 guys whose salaries have been already paid for the most part by another team in hopes the Bucs can remain competitive this year and go into next year's season ticket drive boasting about how close they came. The Pirates' business model is to be as competitive as a small budget allows in order to maintain fan interest without ever sacrificing profit for a trophy.

Back in the early '70s baseball was fun to watch. Now, for me, it's not, due in part to the economics. I'm beginning to see professional sports as I used to view pro wrestling; a scam organized to attract fans into spending. Pirate baseball is losing me because they ( players, owners) don't care about the fans. We are simply here to support their rush to fame and fortune. Thus, I don't spend a dime (to the extent I'm able to control- advertising and tax revenues are out of my reach) on pro sports. I dont pay to watch. At home or the park. I look at the scores, read here and go fishing.

I don`t get to wrapped up in any player.When Bonds left it crushed me. Now i look at players and want to find guys the Pirates can get 5 years from  but possibly 9 years and can afford. I stopped caring about  owner ship its always been bad .But i look at players like  a Pirate GM, so i m always trying to think like them..Most bang for the buck.So i dont pout about things out of my control.



We are not going to give a pitcher or ALL STAR OF, 20 mil per year for the next few years .By then the starting rate will be 30mill. for top oline  #1 .We will always be about 8 mill behind on a year to year offer.So the big guns will not take that offer .



We do like the steelers and keep our own for an extra 2-3 years buy out some arb and a FA year or 2.Thats it .The Pirates best way to go.



Like  we did with Cutch ,Marte,Harrison and Polomco. Thats the only way we will survive. We may get burned (Tabata) but its the best  go .



So many awful contracts out there.. The Pirates want no part of the craze. Buccos smart.

60686B5C4A6F4847290 wrote: Yea, Iowa you are correct. I read somewhere that Nutting has no intentions of selling. Sad as I grew up watching the Pirates as a proud and competitive franchise (early 60's) and even into my early 20's they were always in contention. Then they suffered through the Drug Scandal and finally rebounded in the early 90's...I was looking at some old Pirate Schedules from the early 2001 season. Wow, the team was bad then.  We actually have a decent team now. Just wish the front office would stop all the BS and get behind winning...Sorry to rant, but dang I hate loosing....



Bucs Fan In Ga...Beat'em Bucs!


BFIG posted this in the thread on Luplow, and I didn't want to derail that thread into yet another commentary on Bob Nutting.  Like Hurdle, I'm sure Nutting is probably a decent guy.  I just don't think he truly desires to do everything in his power to put the best team on the field for 162 games.



BFIG, I believe this is the article you were referencing.  http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/3769 ... ting-money



For my money, this might be the single most depressing thing I've read about the Pirates, because if true, then Lustig is right...the Pirates will never be a consistent winner, or at least until Nutting goes all Mike Illitch on us and realizes that his time in this life is running short and he wants a championship before he passes on.



In short, I don't see things improving as long as Bob Nutting owns the team. I'm sure he's a stand-up guy and I give him credit for keeping the franchise in Pittsburgh, building PNC, and restoring the North Shore.  But, I fear that as long as he owns the franchise, we'll never see a winner here, at least not consistently.



I think a compelling case that 2013-15 were more accidental than anything.  Martin, Liriano, and Burnett all had massive turnarounds, to say nothing of Grilli, Melancon, Caminero, Walker, Alvarez, etc.  In a certain sense, they lucked into Liriano going from unreliable guy who can't throw strikes to a serious CY contender for three years.  Martin went from being a serviceable catcher, to arguably the top catcher in the National League.  Burnett resurrected his career.  But, did they count on that?  I don't know.  Travis Sawchick wrote a book about it.  Maybe they were smarter than everyone else.  But, that competitive advantage has dried up.  Everyone is into statistical analysis, shifting, and all that.



But, one thing has remained constant.  The Pirates either can't, or won't, pay market value for MLB talent.  That means four things are a constant reality.



1.  The Pirates won't pay market rate for free agents



2.  Albatross contracts hurt the Pirates more than they hurt other teams.  For example, the Red Sox recently cut Pablo Sandoval, eating something like $62 million.  Such a deal would cripple the Pirates for a decade.  The Red Sox just write it off as the cost of doing business.  Now, there's serious talk of whether or not Andrew McCutchen's option next year will be an "albatross."  For most other MLB teams, there wouldn't be any question as to whether or not that option will be exercise.  (For the record, I believe the Pirates will exercise that option if he isn't traded).



3.  The Pirates trade away good players when they get too expensive, rather than risk losing them to free agency.  To some extent, I would wager that every team does this.  No team signs all of its free agents.  But the Pirates do this CONSISTENTLY.  It's only a matter of time before we repeat the current cycle not with McCutchen and Cole, but with Marte, Polanco, and Taillon.



4.  Because of the Pirates constant need to replenish their MLB roster with younger, cheaper options, they are that much more reluctant than other teams to trade prospects.  Again, let's use the Red Sox as an example.  They traded the top prospect in baseball in Yoan Moncada for Chris Sale.  The Pirates have their share of top prospects, though none who are receiving consideration for the #1 spot.  But, let's just say they did.  Would the Pirates have considered trading Moncada?  Absolutely not.  Heck, I'd bet that Glasnow (despite his MLB struggles), Meadows, and Keller are all untouchable, or at least as close to untouchable as possible.  Even if we had 65 wins right now and were a lock to make the postseason, those guys would be off limits.



In short, we can't compete in the FA market, we can't compete in the trade market.  We used to be able to compete in the draft (see Josh Bell), but MLB took that option away.  I don't know enough about the international market to make an educated comment there.  Point being...I'm rather discouraged right now.  I'm wondering if there is any hope in rooting for this team anymore.  The point is to win the World Series.  If we have literally no shot due to the imbalanced playing field and an owner who refused to lose money, then I see little reason to continue following the team.  I have far better things to do with my time than invest in something that is hopeless, meaning literally "without hope."



Someone please tell me why I'm wrong.


Good post Iowa. I just have one comment. Nutting had nothing to do with keeping the Bucs in Pittsburgh or building PNC Park. That credit belongs to Kevin McClatchy.

12373434210A373F3D2A580 wrote: Yea, Iowa you are correct. I read somewhere that Nutting has no intentions of selling. Sad as I grew up watching the Pirates as a proud and competitive franchise (early 60's) and even into my early 20's they were always in contention. Then they suffered through the Drug Scandal and finally rebounded in the early 90's...I was looking at some old Pirate Schedules from the early 2001 season. Wow, the team was bad then.  We actually have a decent team now. Just wish the front office would stop all the BS and get behind winning...Sorry to rant, but dang I hate loosing....



Bucs Fan In Ga...Beat'em Bucs!


BFIG posted this in the thread on Luplow, and I didn't want to derail that thread into yet another commentary on Bob Nutting.  Like Hurdle, I'm sure Nutting is probably a decent guy.  I just don't think he truly desires to do everything in his power to put the best team on the field for 162 games.



BFIG, I believe this is the article you were referencing.  http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/3769 ... ting-money



For my money, this might be the single most depressing thing I've read about the Pirates, because if true, then Lustig is right...the Pirates will never be a consistent winner, or at least until Nutting goes all Mike Illitch on us and realizes that his time in this life is running short and he wants a championship before he passes on.



In short, I don't see things improving as long as Bob Nutting owns the team. I'm sure he's a stand-up guy and I give him credit for keeping the franchise in Pittsburgh, building PNC, and restoring the North Shore.  But, I fear that as long as he owns the franchise, we'll never see a winner here, at least not consistently.



I think a compelling case that 2013-15 were more accidental than anything.  Martin, Liriano, and Burnett all had massive turnarounds, to say nothing of Grilli, Melancon, Caminero, Walker, Alvarez, etc.  In a certain sense, they lucked into Liriano going from unreliable guy who can't throw strikes to a serious CY contender for three years.  Martin went from being a serviceable catcher, to arguably the top catcher in the National League.  Burnett resurrected his career.  But, did they count on that?  I don't know.  Travis Sawchick wrote a book about it.  Maybe they were smarter than everyone else.  But, that competitive advantage has dried up.  Everyone is into statistical analysis, shifting, and all that.



But, one thing has remained constant.  The Pirates either can't, or won't, pay market value for MLB talent.  That means four things are a constant reality.



1.  The Pirates won't pay market rate for free agents



2.  Albatross contracts hurt the Pirates more than they hurt other teams.  For example, the Red Sox recently cut Pablo Sandoval, eating something like $62 million.  Such a deal would cripple the Pirates for a decade.  The Red Sox just write it off as the cost of doing business.  Now, there's serious talk of whether or not Andrew McCutchen's option next year will be an "albatross."  For most other MLB teams, there wouldn't be any question as to whether or not that option will be exercise.  (For the record, I believe the Pirates will exercise that option if he isn't traded).



3.  The Pirates trade away good players when they get too expensive, rather than risk losing them to free agency.  To some extent, I would wager that every team does this.  No team signs all of its free agents.  But the Pirates do this CONSISTENTLY.  It's only a matter of time before we repeat the current cycle not with McCutchen and Cole, but with Marte, Polanco, and Taillon.



4.  Because of the Pirates constant need to replenish their MLB roster with younger, cheaper options, they are that much more reluctant than other teams to trade prospects.  Again, let's use the Red Sox as an example.  They traded the top prospect in baseball in Yoan Moncada for Chris Sale.  The Pirates have their share of top prospects, though none who are receiving consideration for the #1 spot.  But, let's just say they did.  Would the Pirates have considered trading Moncada?  Absolutely not.  Heck, I'd bet that Glasnow (despite his MLB struggles), Meadows, and Keller are all untouchable, or at least as close to untouchable as possible.  Even if we had 65 wins right now and were a lock to make the postseason, those guys would be off limits.



In short, we can't compete in the FA market, we can't compete in the trade market.  We used to be able to compete in the draft (see Josh Bell), but MLB took that option away.  I don't know enough about the international market to make an educated comment there.  Point being...I'm rather discouraged right now.  I'm wondering if there is any hope in rooting for this team anymore.  The point is to win the World Series.  If we have literally no shot due to the imbalanced playing field and an owner who refused to lose money, then I see little reason to continue following the team.  I have far better things to do with my time than invest in something that is hopeless, meaning literally "without hope."



Someone please tell me why I'm wrong.


Good post Iowa. I just have one comment. Nutting had nothing to do with keeping the Bucs in Pittsburgh or building PNC Park. That credit belongs to Kevin McClatchy.


That's not entirely true -- yes, McClatchy did the heavy lifting on keeping the team here and building the ballpark, but the Nutting family came on board in about 1996 or '97 to join the ownership team and kept increasing their piece of the ownership pie as other investors left the consortium over the years.



(I distinctly remember it because in 1997 I worked for another enterprise owned by the Nuttings and found myself relating quite well to the players because all Nutting employees worked for a pittance, compared to their peers in their respective industries.)

Nutting should see this year as an investment in the team's future. Our TV contract is coming up. Honestly shooting for a championship by going in the red for a year or two would go a long way toward boosting our ratings and getting us a better deal.

IA Bucs, you nailed it my friend. Spot on. Nutting is what he is and nothing is going to change his thinking or the business model. I too am very disappointed...As we tread water, but can't ever seem to really get out and lead the pack...Fans since the early 60's. Gone are the days of taking pride in being a Bucs fan. I won't allow myself to accept just being okay, but geez, I have resorted to accepting the Bucs just competing...Sad times indeed...While my friends brag on their Dodgers, Giants, even Braves...I have little to brag on.



Beat'em Bucs

I became convinced that Nutting really has no interest in winning a championship in the winter of 2014 - I couldn't understand why a team that had the potential to be a WS champion wasn't made  better.  At the time I started screaming "FINISH THE TEAM".  98 wins, but 2 games short.  Trying to do it as cheaply as possible is not the same as trying to do it (win a WS). Then the winter of 2015 and the Pirates have not been the same since.



I know I'm right about Nutting not having any real interest in winning a championship because last year didn't move his needle one bit - a competitive owner would have said "we moved the wrong direction, what do we have to do to correct this?"  Instead it was more of the same - cut payroll again.



I think he's getting too much credit - the idea that he'd like to win if it stays within his iron-fist budget is wrong.  From all evidence, he has no interest in a WS unless it literally falls in his lap. I hate to say this, but Nutting doesn't deserve a WS, the fans do but not him. It would send all the wrong messages.



Maybe saving a  nickel make sense in the newspaper business, it doesn't in major-league baseball.