OnlyBucs

Pitcher #1 appears to be a fan favorite based at least in part on high pedigree. Often spoken of with terms like future ace, anchor of the staff, the real deal, etc. being bandied about. Meet Jameson Taillon, age 26.



Pitcher#2 seems to get no respect. He's viewed mostly as inconsistent, a fungible 4th starter, or a future denizen of the bullpen. Meet Chad Kuhl, age 25.



Anyone foolish enough to suggest these two as comparable might expect to be scornfully laughed off the pages of internet sports forums.



And yet here are the 2018 stats for these two pitchers:



ERA: 4.20, ERA+: 92, FIP: 4.66, WHIP: 1.347, H/9: 9.1, BB/9: 3.1, SO/9: 8.6 Kuhl



ERA: 4.56  ERA+: 86, FIP: 4.12, WHIP: 1.286, H/9: 8.8, BB/9: 2.8, SO/9: 8.4 Taillon









Do those numbers appear to support the all too common perception of a large gulf between these two in terms of performance and potential? 



**note: updated to reflect Kuhl's start on 5/23  







 

Good post Quail. Our two young pitchers are currently on different trajectories. Taillon did have the acknowledged pedigree and supreme arsenal of pitches. He has been given the advantages commensurate with a high draft choice. Kuhl has had to earn his way and do some convincing.



On this staff, I feel like Williams is the top guy. He always goes in with a plan, mixes pitches, speed, and location, and competes like a warrior. Sometimes I think Taillon relies on his stuff and catches way too much of the plate on way too many pitches. It seems Kuhl is starting piece together the process. Success doesn't just happen because you step on the mound, it takes a lot of hard work, preparation, and will. I have no reason to think Taillon wont get there...It just seems like Kuhl has a chance to get there first.

Personally, I think Williams is our best starter right now, the Kuhl, then Taillon, then Kingham, then Nova, and Musgrove TBD.

We all have to admit: any ranking of starting Pitching that doesnt get around to Taillon until after Williams and Kuhl is most likely not good news, and that’s the case here.



I love the development of Williams, and Kuhl is putting a couple good games together. But they aren’t 1s or 2s like we expect Jamison to be.



How nice it would be if Tallion turned into that true ace, and Willians/Kuhl turned into 2/3 type pitchers.



Something is happening with Tallion. The Pirates need to figure that out ASAP.....unless of course it’s the Pirates tinkering around that caused the problem.

Here's my question. Lots of people seem to be all excited about Musgrove joining the rotation. I hope he's great but why is there any reason to believe he'll be anything different or better than our current collection of No. 4/5 caliber starters (which is basically our entire rotation)? I don't see Musgrove being any different. Hope he proves me wrong.



Like VA just said, what we really need is for Taillon to pitch like a legit No. 1 starter -- and he's not anywhere near that level at this point.

There is too much emphasis on the rotation numbers. I don't care how the top four guys are slotted or labeled. They will all start pretty much the same amount of games.

7671676F6176313D446369656D682A676B69040 wrote: We all have to admit: any ranking of starting Pitching that doesnt get around to Taillon until after Williams and Kuhl is most likely not good news, and that’s the case here.



I love the development of Williams, and Kuhl is putting a couple good games together.  But they aren’t 1s or 2s like we expect Jamison to be. 



How nice it would be if Tallion turned into that true ace, and Willians/Kuhl turned into 2/3 type pitchers.



Something is happening with Tallion.  The Pirates need to figure that out ASAP.....unless of course it’s the Pirates tinkering around that caused the problem.


This is where I disagree about Kuhl. Expectations that he can't attain a No. 1 status have little to do with the power pitcher Chad Kuhl that we see pitching today versus the sinker/control pitcher he was when he arrived from AAA a couple of years ago. Chad Kuhl's stuff is impressive. The numbers I posted above show there is no real difference between him and Taillon with regard to being guys with outstanding stuff. Remember too that as far as developing potential is concerned Kuhl is a year younger than Taillon.



Trevor Williams has been the best starter for the Pirates, and he's following up on what was a surprisingly good 2017 with impressive improvements in all areas. He doesn't have incredible stuff, but is maximizing his talent to a very high level. If I had only one wish for the Pirates this year it would be that Taillon and Kuhl could get their respective acts together to the same degree that Williams has. If that should happen this could turn into a very good year for the Bucs.

202B232F2A2B307573043D252C2B2B6A272B440 wrote: There is too much emphasis on the rotation numbers.  I don't care how the top four guys are slotted or labeled.  They will all start pretty much the same amount of games. 


Rotation numbers are a helpful communicative tool for a discussion. It's a bit like shorthand. Instead of having to express that I think Jameson Taillon is ultimately capable of winning 15-20 games with an ERA well under 3.00 and a WHIP of around 1, all I have to say is I think he's a potential No. 1 starter. For the most part people use these rotation numbers in this way, everyone understands that each starter will get their turns regardless of "their number".

I think this conversation is why we have to trade OF for minor league pitching talent with upside.



We need more high upside SP talent. Go into A+ ball if you have to, but get high upside arms and learn to develop pitchers better. We appear to be doing something wrong with SP organizationally...



We also appear to have a crazy good strategy at building bullpens. Need to seriously revamp rotation strategy, imo.

232A22333D470 wrote: I think this conversation is why we have to trade OF for minor league pitching talent with upside.   



We need more high upside SP talent.   Go into A+ ball if you have to, but get high upside arms and learn to develop pitchers better.   We appear to be doing something wrong with SP organizationally...



We also appear to have a crazy good strategy at building bullpens.    Need to seriously revamp rotation strategy, imo. 


Agreed. Charlie Morton and Gerrit Cole come to mind. I can't help but wonder how Taillon and Kuhl might look if they were pitching for Houston right now.