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Matheny Out in Cardland



If a manager of his caliber can be let go in the middle of the season why on earth did the Bucs extend a manager of less value for 4 years?

44656D446F67000 wrote: Matheny Out in Cardland



If a manager of his caliber can be let go in the middle of the season why on earth did the Bucs extend a manager of less value for 4 years?
It would appear the bar is set a tad higher in St.L.



0 losing seasons in 6+ years.

1 World Series (lost)

3 division winners

2 2nd place finishers

2 NLCS losses

4 post season appearances



Maybe TBMTISTL got tired of Matheny emphasizing winning ahead of resting.

It appears the Bucs aren't the only team in the division with a level of internal dysfunction. I never really cared much for Matheny, but I attributed that to the fact he managed one of our arch rivals. I always respected him for his competitiveness and intensity.



The Cardinal's sins have come at many levels. Wong, Carpenter, and Ozuna have hit poorly for large parts of this season. Dexter Fowler's problems make Polanco look like Ted Williams.



GM Mozeliak has made some questionable and costly transactions. And the reports that Bud Norris is bullying rookie Jordan Hicks look almost laughable. Norris made Hicks turn down the music in the clubhouse, and fined him $100 for breaking the team travel dress code?



Perhaps the reports are not complete. But it appears the Cards have a litany of issues as an organization just like the Bucs. Who knows, a change of field managers sure helped the Reds. If this move helps the Cards, I hope the Bucs are paying attention.

The Matheny dismissal really intrigued me. Matheny had a win percentage of .555 (592 – 474) during his tenure. What prompted the Cards to make this move?



I asked one of my neighbors, a huge Cardinal fan and season ticket holder what he thought. He said he was surprised by the firing but certainly not shocked---rumors had persisted for some time he said. He, and the season ticket holders he share seats with, felt two things led to the change.



First, Matheny was somewhat old school compared to many modern day coaches/managers. Early season struggles by Wong, Ozuna, and Fowler resulted in pressure on the players, the coaches, and the player’s personal hitting gurus from outside the organization. The word was Matheny and hitting coach John Mabry had a hard time getting through to those players, who tended to side with their personal coaches.



As the slumps continued, Matheny wanted to play the hot bat -- specifically in place of Fowler, who has arguably been the worst hitter in the NL this year. Fowler is owed $16.5 each year through 2021. He expected to play no matter how poorly he swung the bat. At that price, Fowler was himself a distressed asset. Evidently several players complained they could not evolve from their slumps without regular playing time, something a frustrated Matheny was reluctant to do, in part because of the pressure he was under and no doubt because of his use of common sense.



Secondly, the Cardinal fans have cooled somewhat on the all-powerful President of Operations John Mozeliak. Some of his moves and non-moves have come up short—including the big-money acquisitions of Fowler, $14M relief pitcher Greg Holland, and Ozuna, who evidently came over with some rather serious shoulder issues. Cardinal fans don’t put all the blame on Matheny and believe his hands were somewhat tied by the FO moves.



I listened to much of the press conference by Cardinal owner Bill DeWitt and Mozeliak on Sunday. I have no doubt they like and respect Matheny. Dewitt said his biggest concern was PROVIDING A CONSISTENT WINNER FOR HIS GREAT FANS. And the rules of engagement mean struggling GMs fire struggling field managers, not the other-way-around.



I tried to reconcile the Cards’ actions to the Pirates. Matheny is fired in part for not wanting to play slumping players; Clint is secure in playing slumping players. Mozeliak follows the time-tested measure of removing a manager for continued underperformance. Clint feels little heat from his GM. The Cardinals owner loves his fans and wants nothing more than a consistent winner for his organization. The Pirates owner loves his wallet, cares little about his fans and consistent winning, and apparently is complicit in the seeming indifference of his GM and Manager (‘if winning gets in the way of what we do great...if not, no big deal.’)



Moral of the Story: We need a new owner.

5D5A766177140 wrote: The Matheny dismissal really intrigued me.  Matheny had a win percentage of .555 (592 – 474) during his tenure.   What prompted the Cards to make this move?



I asked one of my neighbors, a huge Cardinal fan and season ticket holder what he thought.  He said he was surprised by the firing but certainly not shocked---rumors had persisted for some time he said.  He, and the season ticket holders he share seats with, felt two things led to the change.



First, Matheny was somewhat old school compared to many modern day coaches/managers.   Early season struggles by Wong, Ozuna, and Fowler resulted in pressure on the players, the coaches, and the player’s personal hitting gurus from outside the organization.   The word was Matheny and hitting coach John Mabry had a hard time getting through to those players, who tended to side with their personal coaches.   



As the slumps continued, Matheny wanted to play the hot bat -- specifically in place of Fowler, who has arguably been the worst hitter in the NL this year.   Fowler is owed $16.5 each year through 2021.  He expected to play no matter how poorly he swung the bat.   At that price, Fowler was himself a distressed asset.   Evidently several players complained they could not evolve from their slumps without regular playing time, something a frustrated Matheny was reluctant to do, in part because of the pressure he was under and no doubt because of his use of common sense. 



Secondly, the Cardinal fans have cooled somewhat on the all-powerful President of Operations John Mozeliak.   Some of his moves and non-moves have come up short—including the big-money acquisitions of Fowler, $14M relief pitcher Greg Holland, and Ozuna, who evidently came over with some rather serious shoulder issues.   Cardinal fans don’t put all the blame on Matheny and believe his hands were somewhat tied by the FO moves.



I listened to much of the press conference by Cardinal owner Bill DeWitt and Mozeliak on Sunday.  I have no doubt they like and respect Matheny.  Dewitt said his biggest concern was PROVIDING A CONSISTENT WINNER FOR HIS GREAT FANS.   And the rules of engagement mean struggling GMs fire struggling field managers, not the other-way-around.



I tried to reconcile the Cards’ actions to the Pirates.   Matheny is fired in part for not wanting to play slumping players; Clint is secure in playing slumping players.   Mozeliak follows the time-tested measure of removing a manager for continued underperformance.   Clint feels little heat from his GM.  The Cardinals owner loves his fans and wants nothing more than a consistent winner for his organization.   The Pirates owner loves his wallet, cares little about his fans and consistent winning, and apparently is complicit in the seeming indifference of his GM and Manager (‘if winning gets in the way of what we do great...if not, no big deal.’) 



Moral of the Story:  We need a new owner. 


There are some merit to all sides here, I just think NH and CH don't put enough pressure or any pressure on our players giving them no reason to work harder. 



The Cards have preformed way above where their talent level has been for years.  Matheney has never had a losing season, that's incredible.  They expect over performance from all of their players and in the past have more often than not got it.  They don't have the talent and it's finally caught up to them.  We have a manager who has losing seasons the last 2 years and we give him a 4 year contract, what a disaster, CH feels no pressure and therefore our players feel little to no pressure to perform.  Some players put enough pressure on themselves but many are satisfied to take and accept failure as long as the money keeps flowing.  That's when you get in a death spiral.

Bottom line, there are expectations in STL year after year to be competitive. They always seem to find a way to make it work. Each year they seem to bring up one or two cats from the minors and they take off. Ozuna has been a disappointment, but he is still on pace for a 20-homer, 98-RBI season and he will improve the second half. Carpenter has come back from the dead, a lot of that against the Pirates. He is close to having a 40-homer pace. Let's not forget, that starting rotation has been pieced together. Brought Mikolas back from Japan ... thought he would suck and he hasn't. They would be in much better shape if Reyes and Wainwright weren't injured. Then again, you really can't count on those two to remain healthy - much like us and Cervelli.



In addition, that Gregg Holland signing has been a disaster. A guy with limited success as a starter is their closer. I know we have seen this move before, but who would have thought Budd Norris would be a closer in the majors? My hand is down.



This is the difference between the two organizations. One expects to win/compete, while the other hopes to compete.

1F0F0E392F2F234C0 wrote: Bottom line, there are expectations in STL year after year to be competitive.  They always seem to find a way to make it work.  Each year they seem to bring up one or two cats from the minors and they take off.  Ozuna has been a disappointment, but he is still on pace for a 20-homer, 98-RBI season and he will improve the second half.  Carpenter has come back from the dead, a lot of that against the Pirates.  He is close to having a 40-homer pace.  Let's not forget, that starting rotation has been pieced together.  Brought Mikolas back from Japan ... thought he would suck and he hasn't.  They would be in much better shape if Reyes and Wainwright weren't injured.  Then again, you really can't count on those two to remain healthy - much like us and Cervelli.



In addition, that Gregg Holland signing has been a disaster.  A guy with limited success as a starter is their closer.  I know we have seen this move before, but who would have thought Budd Norris would be a closer in the majors?  My hand is down.



This is the difference between the two organizations.  One expects to win/compete, while the other hopes to compete.
Yeah, I don't hear the Cubs, Cards, Brewers or Reds saying their goal is to win 78-82 games and hope to overachieve. What a pathetic embarrassment.