OnlyBucs

A few months ago I questioned whether excessive use of the two-seam (2S) fastball compromised the effectiveness of our pitchers. Now I am questioning if the two-seamer compromises their arm health?



Most experts agree that speed or power pitches increase the strain on the forearm and elbow. Add in the potential extra torque from the pronation of a two-seam delivery and you can have a high-risk pitch.



In this decade alone, Charlie Morton, Clay Holmes, Jamison Taillon, Brandon Cumpton, Nick Kingham, and Chad Kuhl have had Tommy John surgery (TJS). Edgar Santana is up next. I could confirm all except Cumpton threw high percentages of two-seamers.



Kuhl threw 63% and 46% 2S in 2017 and 2018. Worse yet he averaged 96 mph with a violent release. Santana hurled 50% and 39% 2S in 2017 and 2018, averaging 95 mph on those pitches. Although I couldn't get Holmes pitch type from the year of his TJS in 2014, he continued his heavy-sinker diet having thrown 48% 2S in 2018 with the Bucs. Morton threw 61% 2S in 171 innings in 2011, the year prior to his TJS in 2012.



Last weekend I saw a list of the 20 two-seam pitchers with the highest spin rates in 2018. It was amazing how many players on that list have already had TJS-- including Tyler Chatwood, who has had the surgery twice.



In another list of players who have had TJS, I googled Adam Wainwright and Alex Cobb. Wainwright had TJS in 2011, after consecutive years tossing at least 230 innings and 46% 2S. Since the surgery, Wainwright has not thrown more than 27% 2S --- until this year when in a SSS he is at 36%. Cobb threw 38% 2S in the 2 years before his surgery in 2015. He hasn’t backed off though, having thrown 47%, 51%, and 42% in the 3 years since.



I am sure pitchers can blow out their arms on any type of pitch but it does make me wonder if the two-seamer is accelerating the TJS epidemic? The other night I saw Matt Scherzer pitching, so I googled him. He has pitched over 2,100 career innings and over 200 innings each of the past 6 seasons. He has never had TJS. Scherzer doesn’t throw the two-seamer.



Is it possible the 2S will someday move towards near extinction like the split finger? Both are great pitches, but pitches that should probably be used in moderation as complimentary pitches. Regardless, I think the Pirates should take a long look at pitch type allocation and how they develop their pitchers. They should also study the release mechanics of each 2S pitcher. I hope Mitch Keller doesn’t focus on the power-sinker?

So those numbers are compelling and something to consider.



However, I don't get it from a mechanics perspective. As far as I have always known, there is no difference in the mechanics between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball, right? It's a matter of grip. For that matter, the same goes for the change up and the splitter. It's all the same fastball mechanics (hips, upper body, arm slot, velocity of the arm). Are there predominately 4 seam guys who have also had surgery? This one is strange for me.

54496D6F61040 wrote: So those numbers are compelling and something to consider.



However, I don't get it from a mechanics perspective.  As far as I have always known, there is no difference in the mechanics between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball, right?  It's a matter of grip.  For that matter, the same goes for the change up and the splitter.  It's all the same fastball mechanics (hips, upper body, arm slot, velocity of the arm).  Are there predominately 4 seam guys who have also had surgery?  This one is strange for me.
Yes I don't see the correlation. The only difference between a 2 and 4 seam is grip.

45445F4E58181F2B0 wrote: So those numbers are compelling and something to consider.



However, I don't get it from a mechanics perspective.  As far as I have always known, there is no difference in the mechanics between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball, right?  It's a matter of grip.  For that matter, the same goes for the change up and the splitter.  It's all the same fastball mechanics (hips, upper body, arm slot, velocity of the arm).  Are there predominately 4 seam guys who have also had surgery?  This one is strange for me.
Yes I don't see the correlation. The only difference between a 2 and 4 seam is grip.


That's what I thought, too. I think some of the confusion comes in that "two-seam fastball" and "sinker" are often used interchangeably. They are very similar pitches, but as I understand it anyway, a two-seamer and a sinker have a slight difference in how they are released. Perhaps a sinker puts more strain on the arm?



I've always heard that curveballs put a lot of strain on an arm, but sort of a reverse curve, the screwball, doesn't. That seems odd to me, since a screwball is a very difficult pitch to throw, and even at the MLB level, very few guys throw one.



The forkball is a pitch that seems difficult to grip, and you kind of wedge the ball in-between your index and middle fingers. It would seem to strain those tendons and ligaments in the hand.



Different pitches have always fascinated me. I don't know much about them, and since I never pitched even in Little League, I don't really have any experience throwing any of them. I still find them interesting.

0D103436385D0 wrote: So those numbers are compelling and something to consider.



However, I don't get it from a mechanics perspective.  As far as I have always known, there is no difference in the mechanics between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball, right?  It's a matter of grip.  For that matter, the same goes for the change up and the splitter.  It's all the same fastball mechanics (hips, upper body, arm slot, velocity of the arm).  Are there predominately 4 seam guys who have also had surgery?  This one is strange for me.
Could it just be that the 2S is used more often than the 4S? Pitchers prefer to keep the ball lower in the zone so it would seem the majority of the FBs that strain their arms would be the 2S. I suspect the injuries are the result of the strain from both the 2S and the 4S and that pitchers may be throwing the 2S more often but the strain would be the same. I don't have stats on it. Just wondering.