Penguins v. Pirates
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Roberto218
- Posts: 257
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Penguins v. Pirates
Okay,I am at a Penguins-Rangers game at the Garden and the Penguins are up 4-1 after 2 periods. Somehow I was upgraded to the Lexus seats. Query: what is it that makes the Penguins and the Steelers perennial contenders? Why not the Pirates?
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
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Penguins v. Pirates
Oh that's easy.
https://www.si.com/nhl/2014/09/15/2004- ... t-dark-day
not only did it get revenue sharing and a salary cap and salary floor; but the Penguins drafted Sidney Crosby after winning the draft caused by the lost season. The Pens went from the third least valuable team in the league (and on its way to Kansas City) to top ten.
Before the deals, Mario was viewed as a "Cheapskate" owner just looking to cut costs (because the previous owner left them bankrupt).
https://www.si.com/nhl/2014/09/15/2004- ... t-dark-day
not only did it get revenue sharing and a salary cap and salary floor; but the Penguins drafted Sidney Crosby after winning the draft caused by the lost season. The Pens went from the third least valuable team in the league (and on its way to Kansas City) to top ten.
Before the deals, Mario was viewed as a "Cheapskate" owner just looking to cut costs (because the previous owner left them bankrupt).
Penguins v. Pirates
Ownership. The Rooneys and Lemieux/Burkle spend a league-average or more on payroll every year. The Pirates under Nutting haven't spent to that level on payroll since...well, ever. The mission statement for both the Steelers and Penguins involves winning championships. The mission statement for the Pirates (as stated by GM Neal Huntington) is to target mediocrity, ie 78-82 wins each season.
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Roberto218
- Posts: 257
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:55 pm
Penguins v. Pirates
Well stated! On the Amtrak from NYC to Albany!
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DemDog
Penguins v. Pirates
604450585D310 wrote: Ownership. The Rooneys and Lemieux/Burkle spend a league-average or more on payroll every year. The Pirates under Nutting haven't spent to that level on payroll since...well, ever. The mission statement for both the Steelers and Penguins involves winning championships. The mission statement for the Pirates (as stated by GM Neal Huntington) is to target mediocrity, ie 78-82 wins each season.
You know Quail that both the Pens and the Stillers were in the same boat as the Bucs. In the old days when The Chief was running the Stillers, there were often chants by the fans of "The same old Steelers" referencing Rooney's unwillingness to spend money on them instead of his horses. Sounds a lot like Nutting. Then Chuck Noll, Joe Greene, Terry Bradshaw and a draft class of '74 fell into their laps and the rest is history. Of course, there are other things that happened in the NFL as mentioned above that helped too.
As for the Pens, they were mismanaged from the start. I remember the teams before Mario. Most games only had about 5,000 fans if that many and they were like most of us here at OBN diehard fans of hockey and thus the Pens. But the Pens came alive when they drafted Mario and the rest is history. It also helped them that Mario was able to partner with Burkle and his money.
MLB needs the salary cap, the salary floor and much broader revenue sharing like the NFL and NHL. The Bucs need an owner like Burkle who will spend some money to bring in talent too.
You know Quail that both the Pens and the Stillers were in the same boat as the Bucs. In the old days when The Chief was running the Stillers, there were often chants by the fans of "The same old Steelers" referencing Rooney's unwillingness to spend money on them instead of his horses. Sounds a lot like Nutting. Then Chuck Noll, Joe Greene, Terry Bradshaw and a draft class of '74 fell into their laps and the rest is history. Of course, there are other things that happened in the NFL as mentioned above that helped too.
As for the Pens, they were mismanaged from the start. I remember the teams before Mario. Most games only had about 5,000 fans if that many and they were like most of us here at OBN diehard fans of hockey and thus the Pens. But the Pens came alive when they drafted Mario and the rest is history. It also helped them that Mario was able to partner with Burkle and his money.
MLB needs the salary cap, the salary floor and much broader revenue sharing like the NFL and NHL. The Bucs need an owner like Burkle who will spend some money to bring in talent too.
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pghpaulatl
- Posts: 92
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Penguins v. Pirates
Chuck Noll isn't given enough credit for what he accomplished IMHO, especially if you look at the history of the Steelers franchise prior to his taking charge and convincing Dan Rooney to stay the course with the draft and allowing him control.
How many playoff games did the Steelers win from 1933-1969? ZIPPO! Politics aside, I was so pissed when after we won the last SB(Cardinals) and that Dan thanked Obama that I called the Steelers office and asked where Dan and the Steelers would be without Noll!
Mario saved the Penguins and kept them in Pittsburgh and after suffering through much criticism and financial distress can look back with a great sense of accomplishment at the Stanley Cups won.
With the Nut and the Bucs I really don't know, I thought he would change things and spend some money when PNC Park was opened but when they won the 98 games and he failed to spend the next year we all saw what he's about. I wish we could force him to sell the team, but that isn't going to happen so the drive for 78-82 wins will continue.
How many playoff games did the Steelers win from 1933-1969? ZIPPO! Politics aside, I was so pissed when after we won the last SB(Cardinals) and that Dan thanked Obama that I called the Steelers office and asked where Dan and the Steelers would be without Noll!
Mario saved the Penguins and kept them in Pittsburgh and after suffering through much criticism and financial distress can look back with a great sense of accomplishment at the Stanley Cups won.
With the Nut and the Bucs I really don't know, I thought he would change things and spend some money when PNC Park was opened but when they won the 98 games and he failed to spend the next year we all saw what he's about. I wish we could force him to sell the team, but that isn't going to happen so the drive for 78-82 wins will continue.
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BucsFaninGA
Penguins v. Pirates
Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Beat'em Bucs
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3630
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Penguins v. Pirates
1D2A3C2C193E313631181E5F0 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Penguins v. Pirates
675559594D7F5C55585D5255340 wrote: Great posts fellas ...The Pirates need a "super like Mario" to buy the team and make baseball great again in Pittsburgh!
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
Beat'em Bucs
Super Mario would have the team in Kansas City right now if not for the CBA and the sweetheart arena deal. This isn't theory. He had a public offer on the table for a free stadium and he used that to hold above Pittsburgh's heads.
I like Mario as much as anyone I guess but people ignore that he slashed payroll and then basically blackmailed the city if he didn't get his way.
Look at the development he was given around the arena. Ten+ years later and there is still nothing there. Empty parking lot where the civic arena used to be, where Mario said he "needed" development rights if he was to keep the team in town. What if the Pirates had done that? If the NHL had the same rules as baseball people wouldn't have been so quick to forget. Even if the team somehow hadn't left, Sid and Malkin would have been gone years and years ago and we'd be talking about how that's because of the cheap owner. They'd be in the same exact boat as the Pirates.
Under Howard Baldwin the Pens were run into near bankruptcy. Mario had millions of dollars owed to him as a player that at the time looked as if it might never be paid. He took a part in ownership at that time with the view that he could have some control over receiving the money he was owed. He did everything with the singular view of turning a debt-ridden, horribly run franchise into a profitable business, including leveraging the threat of moving the team. He used all the means at his disposal to do what he had to do to not be personally left holding the bag. Yes, some elements of business appear to be ruthless, but it was the right move for both Mario and the city of Pittsburgh.
Mario got very lucky. A new CBA gave the NHL a system of cost controls that meant a talent depleted franchise like the Pens didn't need to overspend to be competitive. And then Mario hit the draft jackpot with Sidney Crosby, a player who would put fans in the seats and stimulate a fresh interest in hockey in Pittsburgh much like what Mario had done almost twenty years earlier. Since that time Lemieux and Burkle have invested the maximum amount of revenue in the team; consistently spending up to the payroll cap, developing an extensive scouting and complete minor league system, and promoting team participation in community support programs.
In short, once the franchise became solvent financially, Pens ownership has put its resources into delivering and maintaining a championship quality team on the ice. What Lemieux/Burkle do with their franchise revenue is diametrically opposite to what Bob Nutting does with the Pirates, and the results reflect just that.
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Bobster21
Penguins v. Pirates
7A5E4A42472B0 wrote: Ownership. The Rooneys and Lemieux/Burkle spend a league-average or more on payroll every year. The Pirates under Nutting haven't spent to that level on payroll since...well, ever. The mission statement for both the Steelers and Penguins involves winning championships. The mission statement for the Pirates (as stated by GM Neal Huntington) is to target mediocrity, ie 78-82 wins each season.
Here's some relevant NH spending history:
2012 (the last of 20 straight losing seasons):
Payroll (61.8 mil) is 59% of MLB avg (104.2 mil).
2013 (1st winning season in 21 years): Payroll (71.4 mil) increases to 64% of MLB avg (110.8 mil).
2014 (another winning season): Payroll (76.9 mil) remains 64% of MLB avg (120.3 mil).
2015 (98 wins): Payroll (99.4 mil) increases to 77.1% of MLB avg (128.9 mil).
2016 (regress to 78-83): Payroll (99.5 mil) is a lower pct (74.2%) of MLB avg (134.1 mil).
2017 (regress to 75-87): Payroll (98.2 mil) is still lower pct (70%) of MLB avg (141.1 mil).
2018 (improve to 82-79): Payroll (91 mil) is still lower pct (65.4%) of MLB avg (139.2 mil).
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2012/
2018 is the outlier. As Pirates narrowed the gap between their modest payroll and the MLB average, performance improved leading to the 98 win season of 2015 when they were within 77% of the average. But the gap widened immediately the following season (74.2%) and a 98 win team became a 78 win team. Ditto for 2017 when the gap further widened (70%) and the record further worsened (75 wins). In 2018 payroll dropped from 98 to 91 mil, the gap further widened (65.4% of MLB avg) but the Pirates improved to 82-79. This year, payroll is estimated to be less than 80 mil.
Did TBMTIB suddenly learn how to do more with less last year? I hope so and I hope there is reason to hope that as they get further and further away from the MLB avg that they can be relevant and competitive. But I have my doubts. They benefited last year from a pretty effective starting pitching rotation in which 4 of the 5 received close to the MLB minimum. But that won't last. Taillon, Williams and Musgrove are all arb eligible in 2020. As are Bell and Frazier. At some point, NH has to show a willingness to spend at least enough to be in the neighborhood of the MLB avg. He was headed in the right direction 2013-2015 but then regressed and has gotten further and further away from the avg each year since. Last year was better than expected but 82 wins didn't get them anything and they were below .500 as late as Sept 15. It's far easier to believe this team is on pace for their stated goal of 78-82 wins than to believe they can compete for a championship.
Here's some relevant NH spending history:
2012 (the last of 20 straight losing seasons):
Payroll (61.8 mil) is 59% of MLB avg (104.2 mil).
2013 (1st winning season in 21 years): Payroll (71.4 mil) increases to 64% of MLB avg (110.8 mil).
2014 (another winning season): Payroll (76.9 mil) remains 64% of MLB avg (120.3 mil).
2015 (98 wins): Payroll (99.4 mil) increases to 77.1% of MLB avg (128.9 mil).
2016 (regress to 78-83): Payroll (99.5 mil) is a lower pct (74.2%) of MLB avg (134.1 mil).
2017 (regress to 75-87): Payroll (98.2 mil) is still lower pct (70%) of MLB avg (141.1 mil).
2018 (improve to 82-79): Payroll (91 mil) is still lower pct (65.4%) of MLB avg (139.2 mil).
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2012/
2018 is the outlier. As Pirates narrowed the gap between their modest payroll and the MLB average, performance improved leading to the 98 win season of 2015 when they were within 77% of the average. But the gap widened immediately the following season (74.2%) and a 98 win team became a 78 win team. Ditto for 2017 when the gap further widened (70%) and the record further worsened (75 wins). In 2018 payroll dropped from 98 to 91 mil, the gap further widened (65.4% of MLB avg) but the Pirates improved to 82-79. This year, payroll is estimated to be less than 80 mil.
Did TBMTIB suddenly learn how to do more with less last year? I hope so and I hope there is reason to hope that as they get further and further away from the MLB avg that they can be relevant and competitive. But I have my doubts. They benefited last year from a pretty effective starting pitching rotation in which 4 of the 5 received close to the MLB minimum. But that won't last. Taillon, Williams and Musgrove are all arb eligible in 2020. As are Bell and Frazier. At some point, NH has to show a willingness to spend at least enough to be in the neighborhood of the MLB avg. He was headed in the right direction 2013-2015 but then regressed and has gotten further and further away from the avg each year since. Last year was better than expected but 82 wins didn't get them anything and they were below .500 as late as Sept 15. It's far easier to believe this team is on pace for their stated goal of 78-82 wins than to believe they can compete for a championship.