) of their games for even a short time. The odds are not good for each of those top four to start 33 games this year. The management seems to be completely unable to acknowledge that reality.Starting Pitching
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Starting Pitching
The Pirates are gushing this spring about their SPs. I heard it a bunch of times yesterday. I heard it from the announcers. I heard it from players. I heard it effusively from Hurdle. I agree. Their top four look to be very formidable. But, we are already uncomfortable with the 5th spot. What happens when one of those top 4 guys get hurt and miss starts? What about two starters? Acquiring Gio Gonzalez or Keuchel may not seem that important when you look at those top four, but they will be in big trouble if Brault/Kingham/Lyles are staring 40% (or 60% ) of their games for even a short time. The odds are not good for each of those top four to start 33 games this year. The management seems to be completely unable to acknowledge that reality.
) of their games for even a short time. The odds are not good for each of those top four to start 33 games this year. The management seems to be completely unable to acknowledge that reality.Starting Pitching
5E4367656B0E0 wrote: The Pirates are gushing this spring about their SPs. I heard it a bunch of times yesterday. I heard it from the announcers. I heard it from players. I heard it effusively from Hurdle. I agree. Their top four look to be very formidable. But, we are already uncomfortable with the 5th spot. What happens when one of those top 4 guys get hurt and miss starts? What about two starters? Acquiring Gio Gonzalez or Keuchel may not seem that important when you look at those top four, but they will be in big trouble if Brault/Kingham/Lyles are staring 40% (or 60% ) of their games for even a short time. The odds are not good for each of those top four to start 33 games this year. The management seems to be completely unable to acknowledge that reality.
You've hit the nail on the head. The strength the team has in starting pitching related to other teams is fragile. Yet everyone knows the injury rate for pitchers is high. For the Bucs to gamble on starting rotation remaining strong (while knowing there are a lot of questions at other spots) is short sighted.
They should be thrilled if they get 120 games started from those 4 as that means they were basically injury free.
) of their games for even a short time. The odds are not good for each of those top four to start 33 games this year. The management seems to be completely unable to acknowledge that reality.You've hit the nail on the head. The strength the team has in starting pitching related to other teams is fragile. Yet everyone knows the injury rate for pitchers is high. For the Bucs to gamble on starting rotation remaining strong (while knowing there are a lot of questions at other spots) is short sighted.
They should be thrilled if they get 120 games started from those 4 as that means they were basically injury free.
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Bobster21
Starting Pitching
Right now the top 4 includes Musgrove who may not even be ready to pitch by opening day after abdominal surgery in October. I know they're bringing him along slowly in ST and hope he's ready for the season but right now it's Taillon, Williams, Archer and ???
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OrlandoMerced
Starting Pitching
How many starting pitchers is a team supposed to have?
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
Starting Pitching
18253B363933381A3225343233570 wrote: How many starting pitchers is a team supposed to have?
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
How many? It depends on how you expect to win. The Pirates are hedging all of their bets on their pitching carrying them to a WC spot. The problem is, that bet assumes the top four will make all of their starts because the drop off after them is severe.
I don't have a problem with the top four or Kingham. I'm fine with Kingham getting 20% of the starts. The problem will be if one of those top four gets hurt. Then Kingham(s) get 40% of the starts. The Pirates have no shot with that drop off. Hence the need for a Gonzalez/Keuchel.
They are hedging their bets that no one gets hurt. The odds are against them.
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
How many? It depends on how you expect to win. The Pirates are hedging all of their bets on their pitching carrying them to a WC spot. The problem is, that bet assumes the top four will make all of their starts because the drop off after them is severe.
I don't have a problem with the top four or Kingham. I'm fine with Kingham getting 20% of the starts. The problem will be if one of those top four gets hurt. Then Kingham(s) get 40% of the starts. The Pirates have no shot with that drop off. Hence the need for a Gonzalez/Keuchel.
They are hedging their bets that no one gets hurt. The odds are against them.
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SammyKhalifa
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Starting Pitching
How many? More than four.
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Bobster21
Starting Pitching
08352B262923280A2235242223470 wrote: How many starting pitchers is a team supposed to have?
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
There are 9.167 million reasons why they dropped Nova. I don't really blame them since he wasn't worth that money. But if money was not their concern and they had kept him, Kingham could have worked in long relief and been the 1st option as a spot starter. Even now, Kingham is one of several pitchers vying for the 5th spot. If he doesn't get the job, he'll likely be in long relief just as he would have been if they had kept Nova. I don't think there was ever a risk of exposing him to waivers.
There is no indication that Musgrove won't be ready to make the trip north with the team. Taillon and Williams have made over 50 starts the past two seasons so they should be reliable. Archer is also a workhorse, so Musgrove is the only real injury concern out of the top 4.
I am of the opinion that they dumped Nova so that they wouldn't have to expose Kingham to waivers. I think Brault is able to pitch out of the bullpen, while Kingham would just waste a BP spot were he to not make the rotation. So thus, I'm pretty sure he has the inside track to that 5th rotation spot and he really seems like a quintessential fifth starter to me.
There are 9.167 million reasons why they dropped Nova. I don't really blame them since he wasn't worth that money. But if money was not their concern and they had kept him, Kingham could have worked in long relief and been the 1st option as a spot starter. Even now, Kingham is one of several pitchers vying for the 5th spot. If he doesn't get the job, he'll likely be in long relief just as he would have been if they had kept Nova. I don't think there was ever a risk of exposing him to waivers.
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OrlandoMerced
Starting Pitching
I'm not sure it would be tenable to have Brault and Kingham in a 7-man bullpen. They aren't guys you could drop into the middle of an inning. I am less trying to say that this roster choice was the right decision, than simply saying that this was why the decision was made. I think the choice was short run vs long run, and then money.I think the choice was to dump Nova so that they could fit both Kingham and Brault on the 25-man and not have to risk a potential long term asset.
This opinion will be proven wrong if they end up exposing either of these guys on waivers in the first half of 2019.
This opinion will be proven wrong if they end up exposing either of these guys on waivers in the first half of 2019.
Starting Pitching
I too am concerned about injuries.
Chad Kuhl was lost for most of last season and all of this season because of surgery. Musgrove also missed significant time last year and is again battling some injuries. And, while he was healthy last year, Tallion has missed considerable time in the past.
No team should count on their preferred starters being healthy through-out the season; injuries, some more severe than others, should be anticipated and planned for.
At present, it appears that the Pirates are counting on either Kingham, Lyles or Brault being the 5th starter. To date, none has shown that there are well suited for the role. I could understand if one of the above was the '6th' depth starter to someone who was better equipped to be the 5th starter (a more talented pitcher), but at present, I have no confidence in any of the above 3 pitchers.
I think the Pirates are making a mistake by inserting one or more of Lyles, Kingham or Brault in the rotation. This approach seems to assume that Keller will be ready to step into a starting role before too long. Perhaps that could work, but it didn't go well the last time the Bucs tried to cover the beginning of the season with the likes of Vogelsong and Nicassio with the expectation that Tallion would soon arrive and pitch well.
Nutting's unwillingness to allocate sufficient funds for payroll is a pox on this team.
Chad Kuhl was lost for most of last season and all of this season because of surgery. Musgrove also missed significant time last year and is again battling some injuries. And, while he was healthy last year, Tallion has missed considerable time in the past.
No team should count on their preferred starters being healthy through-out the season; injuries, some more severe than others, should be anticipated and planned for.
At present, it appears that the Pirates are counting on either Kingham, Lyles or Brault being the 5th starter. To date, none has shown that there are well suited for the role. I could understand if one of the above was the '6th' depth starter to someone who was better equipped to be the 5th starter (a more talented pitcher), but at present, I have no confidence in any of the above 3 pitchers.
I think the Pirates are making a mistake by inserting one or more of Lyles, Kingham or Brault in the rotation. This approach seems to assume that Keller will be ready to step into a starting role before too long. Perhaps that could work, but it didn't go well the last time the Bucs tried to cover the beginning of the season with the likes of Vogelsong and Nicassio with the expectation that Tallion would soon arrive and pitch well.
Nutting's unwillingness to allocate sufficient funds for payroll is a pox on this team.
Starting Pitching
4D706E636C666D4F6770616766020 wrote: I'm not sure it would be tenable to have Brault and Kingham in a 7-man bullpen. They aren't guys you could drop into the middle of an inning. I am less trying to say that this roster choice was the right decision, than simply saying that this was why the decision was made. I think the choice was short run vs long run, and then money.I think the choice was to dump Nova so that they could fit both Kingham and Brault on the 25-man and not have to risk a potential long term asset.
This opinion will be proven wrong if they end up exposing either of these guys on waivers in the first half of 2019.
hopefully he proves me wrong but I don't think Brault has shown enough that they need to worry about whether he goes on waivers or not. He does have good splits against lefties, this spring training and if he makes the roster are big for him. His biggest asset is he is left handed on a team short of lefthanders.
This opinion will be proven wrong if they end up exposing either of these guys on waivers in the first half of 2019.
hopefully he proves me wrong but I don't think Brault has shown enough that they need to worry about whether he goes on waivers or not. He does have good splits against lefties, this spring training and if he makes the roster are big for him. His biggest asset is he is left handed on a team short of lefthanders.