Hurdle
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GermanTownship
Hurdle
Reading the various quotes on OBN about Clint Hurdle has me confused. Now, I'm not defending him. But, he's either cast as a doofus (not knowing what he's doing when he makes moves that don't work), or just plain lucky when the moves that he makes that are successful. Aren't all managers judged that way? I realize the pen has cost the Bucs at least three games this year, but I'm sure many other teams have experienced the same. Just look at the Cubs, who are managed by the "genius", Madden, or the Nationals. How many games has their pen lost? Plus, compare their payroll to the Pirates. I feel the same as many on this board about the team not making a move at shortstop. But let's see how everything plays out this season.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Hurdle
I think it's often way too much.
I think a lot of people won't (or will) like the manager of their team no matter who it is.
I bet if you went around to onlymariners.net, or onlytwins.net, or about 25 other fake fan websites, you'd see that those people think their manager is a moron too. Those fake fans see their team more than all the others, and are more judgmental of their team's actions than the other. The losses are all their fault; and the wins are all because of not screw-ups by the other side, but something great their team did (yet despite the manager).
Not saying they don't make mistakes, but most of those guys are insider "lifers" that have lived the game every day for decades. Frankly as "just" a fan I do not have information that managers that see their players every day do.
I mean I do think it's fair to criticize, but people go overboard. I'd wager that even the worst "baseball guy" out there still has a lot of knowledge (but still obviously makes mistakes).
I think a lot of people won't (or will) like the manager of their team no matter who it is.
I bet if you went around to onlymariners.net, or onlytwins.net, or about 25 other fake fan websites, you'd see that those people think their manager is a moron too. Those fake fans see their team more than all the others, and are more judgmental of their team's actions than the other. The losses are all their fault; and the wins are all because of not screw-ups by the other side, but something great their team did (yet despite the manager).
Not saying they don't make mistakes, but most of those guys are insider "lifers" that have lived the game every day for decades. Frankly as "just" a fan I do not have information that managers that see their players every day do.
I mean I do think it's fair to criticize, but people go overboard. I'd wager that even the worst "baseball guy" out there still has a lot of knowledge (but still obviously makes mistakes).
Hurdle
I don’t think Hurdle has done too much wrong regarding the pen. He got his guys to face the opponents guys he wanted to face. Without Crick, he was forced to use RRod and Kela.
I don’t blame him for not using Burdi in high leverage situations as he has pitched nine innings in the Majors. He did it Friday because Kela failed. I hope Burdi becomes the high leverage guy, because he has awesome stuff.
As for not using Vazquez Tuesday, he had thrown 43 pitches on Sunday. For comparison, Taillon threw 80 and won’t pitch again until Saturday. These guys aren’t baseball cards. Vazquez brings it. I think it was wise to not use him Wednesday.
My biggest problem with Hurdle, (which he seems to have corrected) is repeatedly hitting guys in obvious slumps 3rd or 4th. First Kane and then Cervelli and not hitting hot guys earlier in the lineup. Why Melky isn’t hitting third is beyond me.
In conclusion, I think Clint has done a decent job this session. I think our short comings this season so far are on players: bullpen woes (Kela, RRod), fielding (EGon) and slumps (Kang, Cervelli).
I don’t blame him for not using Burdi in high leverage situations as he has pitched nine innings in the Majors. He did it Friday because Kela failed. I hope Burdi becomes the high leverage guy, because he has awesome stuff.
As for not using Vazquez Tuesday, he had thrown 43 pitches on Sunday. For comparison, Taillon threw 80 and won’t pitch again until Saturday. These guys aren’t baseball cards. Vazquez brings it. I think it was wise to not use him Wednesday.
My biggest problem with Hurdle, (which he seems to have corrected) is repeatedly hitting guys in obvious slumps 3rd or 4th. First Kane and then Cervelli and not hitting hot guys earlier in the lineup. Why Melky isn’t hitting third is beyond me.
In conclusion, I think Clint has done a decent job this session. I think our short comings this season so far are on players: bullpen woes (Kela, RRod), fielding (EGon) and slumps (Kang, Cervelli).
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Hurdle
And let's also have a little perspective when thinking of these "shortcomings" while we're at it. The team chosen by most to come in last or next-to-last place is currently 10-6. I mean that's a small number and probably won't hold but that's what our record is. There's an adage about how the manager gets all of the blame when they lose and none of the credit when they win.
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Bobster21
Hurdle
I don't like Hurdle. I've often said he's basically an average manager inasmuch as he likes to stick to formulas. A starter shouldn't go beyond 100 pitches. A reliever should rarely go more than 1 inning. Therefore an effective pitcher must be replaced and then hope the next pitcher can do as well. Players need a lot of rest even key players in key series. The downside of that is that even when the formula isn't working, he's slow to change it. Managers of very talented rosters can get away with this strategy because of depth. Hurdle doesn't have that luxury but manages as if he does. The Pirates need an excellent, creative, thinking outside the box manager who will make decisions on what is best for that particular game. Hurdle doesn't do that often enough and too often does not put his team in the best position to win. He can't help it if a player fails but he should not be unnecessarily replacing succeeding players with failing players and hoping for the best. Hurdle seems like a nice guy. Yes, he's good in the community. But all managers get involved in their community. That shouldn't be a factor in what kind of manager he is.
That said, I'm very happy with the 10-6 start. I hope by the end of the season I've changed my opinion of Hurdle. I don't have confidence that they will have season long success under Hurdle but I hope I'm wrong about that.
Also, after a surprising 3-8 start, the Cubs have now won 5 of 6. The Cardinals have now won 7 of their last 10. I'm also surprised that the revamped Reds are doing so poorly. Their pitching has improved but no one is hitting for them despite having Votto, Puig, Suarez and Kemp in their lineup. That's sure to change. The Pirates are in a notoriously tough division. And 2 of those teams that started slowly are heating up. And the 5-12 Reds are unlikely to continue losing at their current rate. Hopefully, Hurdle will put his team in the best position to win all season. But they'll have to play consistently well because it doesn't look like the rest of the division will struggle much longer.
That said, I'm very happy with the 10-6 start. I hope by the end of the season I've changed my opinion of Hurdle. I don't have confidence that they will have season long success under Hurdle but I hope I'm wrong about that.
Also, after a surprising 3-8 start, the Cubs have now won 5 of 6. The Cardinals have now won 7 of their last 10. I'm also surprised that the revamped Reds are doing so poorly. Their pitching has improved but no one is hitting for them despite having Votto, Puig, Suarez and Kemp in their lineup. That's sure to change. The Pirates are in a notoriously tough division. And 2 of those teams that started slowly are heating up. And the 5-12 Reds are unlikely to continue losing at their current rate. Hopefully, Hurdle will put his team in the best position to win all season. But they'll have to play consistently well because it doesn't look like the rest of the division will struggle much longer.
Hurdle
547974656273642427160 wrote: I don't like Hurdle. I've often said he's basically an average manager inasmuch as he likes to stick to formulas. A starter shouldn't go beyond 100 pitches. A reliever should rarely go more than 1 inning. Therefore an effective pitcher must be replaced and then hope the next pitcher can do as well. Players need a lot of rest even key players in key series. The downside of that is that even when the formula isn't working, he's slow to change it. Managers of very talented rosters can get away with this strategy because of depth. Hurdle doesn't have that luxury but manages as if he does. The Pirates need an excellent, creative, thinking outside the box manager who will make decisions on what is best for that particular game. Hurdle doesn't do that often enough and too often does not put his team in the best position to win. He can't help it if a player fails but he should not be unnecessarily replacing succeeding players with failing players and hoping for the best. Hurdle seems like a nice guy. Yes, he's good in the community. But all managers get involved in their community. That shouldn't be a factor in what kind of manager he is.
That said, I'm very happy with the 10-6 start. I hope by the end of the season I've changed my opinion of Hurdle. I don't have confidence that they will have season long success under Hurdle but I hope I'm wrong about that.
Also, after a surprising 3-8 start, the Cubs have now won 5 of 6. The Cardinals have now won 7 of their last 10. I'm also surprised that the revamped Reds are doing so poorly. Their pitching has improved but no one is hitting for them despite having Votto, Puig, Suarez and Kemp in their lineup. That's sure to change. The Pirates are in a notoriously tough division. And 2 of those teams that started slowly are heating up. And the 5-12 Reds are unlikely to continue losing at their current rate. Hopefully, Hurdle will put his team in the best position to win all season. But they'll have to play consistently well because it doesn't look like the rest of the division will struggle much longer.
I like Hurdle as a human being a whole lot. I think he is a really good guy to manage a room full of athletes. Despite many on this board, I really appreciate his "not too high, not too low" approach to baseball. When you play 162 games, you can't be flipping over chairs after a loss. He is responsive as opposed to reactive. I like that. You have to see the bigger picture.
I agree that Hurdle has historically been a formulaic manager. Ok, well, he still is in many ways. But I think there has been some adaptation with him this year. Vazquez is clearly sharp out of the gate. Hurdle has already gone to him for more than 3 outs multiple times. I think Hurdle has been quicker than in previous years in moving relievers around. He has moved Burdi into some decent leverage spots already resisting going with loser veterans like Liriano.
My biggest issue with Hurdle is that he feels compelled to play everyone on the bench often. He plays a slumping Reyes or Shuck as if they are equal in production to Cabrera, or Dickerson... Those guys need to be pinch hitters and play once a week. Not three starts a week and pinch hitting in almost every game they don't start. I was all about the theory of rest years ago when they were mimicking Golden State. However, there is no data to suggest that that approach has helped Pirates players in August and September. It was worth a shot. It wasn't effective. Stop doing it. Play the best players.
That said, I'm very happy with the 10-6 start. I hope by the end of the season I've changed my opinion of Hurdle. I don't have confidence that they will have season long success under Hurdle but I hope I'm wrong about that.
Also, after a surprising 3-8 start, the Cubs have now won 5 of 6. The Cardinals have now won 7 of their last 10. I'm also surprised that the revamped Reds are doing so poorly. Their pitching has improved but no one is hitting for them despite having Votto, Puig, Suarez and Kemp in their lineup. That's sure to change. The Pirates are in a notoriously tough division. And 2 of those teams that started slowly are heating up. And the 5-12 Reds are unlikely to continue losing at their current rate. Hopefully, Hurdle will put his team in the best position to win all season. But they'll have to play consistently well because it doesn't look like the rest of the division will struggle much longer.
I like Hurdle as a human being a whole lot. I think he is a really good guy to manage a room full of athletes. Despite many on this board, I really appreciate his "not too high, not too low" approach to baseball. When you play 162 games, you can't be flipping over chairs after a loss. He is responsive as opposed to reactive. I like that. You have to see the bigger picture.
I agree that Hurdle has historically been a formulaic manager. Ok, well, he still is in many ways. But I think there has been some adaptation with him this year. Vazquez is clearly sharp out of the gate. Hurdle has already gone to him for more than 3 outs multiple times. I think Hurdle has been quicker than in previous years in moving relievers around. He has moved Burdi into some decent leverage spots already resisting going with loser veterans like Liriano.
My biggest issue with Hurdle is that he feels compelled to play everyone on the bench often. He plays a slumping Reyes or Shuck as if they are equal in production to Cabrera, or Dickerson... Those guys need to be pinch hitters and play once a week. Not three starts a week and pinch hitting in almost every game they don't start. I was all about the theory of rest years ago when they were mimicking Golden State. However, there is no data to suggest that that approach has helped Pirates players in August and September. It was worth a shot. It wasn't effective. Stop doing it. Play the best players.
Hurdle
I think Hurdle is an average manager based on his on field moves. He may rise to above average in the club house.
The only problem I have with him is that if the Bucs want to win and win with a low payroll then average or even a little above average isn't good enough.
And Sammy is right, most fans of every team think they can be a better manager.
The only problem I have with him is that if the Bucs want to win and win with a low payroll then average or even a little above average isn't good enough.
And Sammy is right, most fans of every team think they can be a better manager.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Hurdle
As I have said in past posts; I am a Hurdle supporter. PMike makes some solid comments regarding Hurdle. I’m sure Skinny will soon chime in to tell us why Hurdle is a moron. I share Skinny’s frustration; but it is not with Hurdle or NH but with Nutting.
As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.
One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.
Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.
One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.
Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Hurdle
16333030250E333B392E5C0 wrote: As I have said in past posts; I am a Hurdle supporter. PMike makes some solid comments regarding Hurdle. I’m sure Skinny will soon chime in to tell us why Hurdle is a moron. I share Skinny’s frustration; but it is not with Hurdle or NH but with Nutting.
As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.
One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.
Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
Hurdle should stick to philosophy cause he sure can't manage a baseball team. We all get excited when we play above .500 baseball, but we forget what's inevitably coming. This team will hit a very rough patch and Hurdle will manage with his little formula's as nothing wrong and continually put this team in bad situations cause he wants to stick with the formula. This team can't win with a average manager (good guy), this team doesn't have the resources of LAD, NYY, Cubs, and on and on. That means we have to excel in other ways. I'm so tired of excuses for why we can't win. Managers aren't the biggest financial expense of any team, but they can have the biggest impact on a team. It happens time and time again in sports where a team hires the right guy and he turns a organization around. CH is one of the longest tenured managers and we have nothing to show for it. Excuses for batting guys like Cervelli 3rd for 4 weeks with nothing to show for it, batting Josh Bell 4th virtually all last year with 10 home runs, continually running out SRod to play 4 or 5 games a week, putting Watson in game situations after blowing 5 or 6 games in a row. What a shame this team and this city is putting up with this crap year after year.
As PMike pointed out, Clint tries not to get too high or too low which is important in a long baseball season. With all the tootblans and mistakes the players have made he keeps a calm demeanor. Some will say that Hurdle and his coaches are responsible for making sure those mistakes are not made. I say these players have been playing ball since a very young age at a high level. They should not me making mistakes that a little leaguer would know better than.
One big reason I like Hurdle is the life experiences he brings to the table. As people know, he was the anointed the next superstar in MLB. He pissed it away and never lived up to the hype. He has had to endure personnel strife within his family. He can pass on life experiences to younger players that can be used for motivation.
Bottom line however is that Clint has to manage the players that are given to him by the front office. As we all know; because of Nuttings spending habits; Clint has zero margin for error
Hurdle should stick to philosophy cause he sure can't manage a baseball team. We all get excited when we play above .500 baseball, but we forget what's inevitably coming. This team will hit a very rough patch and Hurdle will manage with his little formula's as nothing wrong and continually put this team in bad situations cause he wants to stick with the formula. This team can't win with a average manager (good guy), this team doesn't have the resources of LAD, NYY, Cubs, and on and on. That means we have to excel in other ways. I'm so tired of excuses for why we can't win. Managers aren't the biggest financial expense of any team, but they can have the biggest impact on a team. It happens time and time again in sports where a team hires the right guy and he turns a organization around. CH is one of the longest tenured managers and we have nothing to show for it. Excuses for batting guys like Cervelli 3rd for 4 weeks with nothing to show for it, batting Josh Bell 4th virtually all last year with 10 home runs, continually running out SRod to play 4 or 5 games a week, putting Watson in game situations after blowing 5 or 6 games in a row. What a shame this team and this city is putting up with this crap year after year.