Would you make this trade with the Yankees?

gileszee · Post by **gileszee** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:20 pm

Archer for Frazier?

Guess that is a no brainer from a Pirate fan perspective. I would eat whatever salary left on Archer's contract to get rid of him.

I have seen enough to be honest.

When Dickerson is dealt and Melky too, we would have Reynolds in LF, Marte in CF and Frazier/Polanco in RF as a platoon.

Dickerson and Melky should be flipped for pitching, whatever they can get as long as the incoming pitcher has a sub 5.00 ERA.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:32 pm

If NY wants to trade Frazier I'm sure they could get a better pitcher than Archer.

mouse · Post by **mouse** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:10 pm

Pitching is always overpriced at the trade deadline, so you never know, but I would be surprised if they got much for Archer. I also don't see them doing it. They want more pitching, not less.

gileszee · Post by **gileszee** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:11 pm

Rather go with Williams, Musgrove, and some combination of Brault, Agrazal and Keller the rest of the way.

Trade Archer and Lyles for prospects.

SammyKhalifa · Post by **SammyKhalifa** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:24 pm

I'm not down on Archer as much as many. Well, no he hasn't done well and I'm not happy with how he's pitching, but I'm not ready to just pull the plug. I think trading him right now (even if you don't like him) is a mistake. Just like the Pirates (and fans) to give up too quickly and at the wrong time.

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:55 pm

I think there's no getting around the fact the NH made a horrendous trade for Archer, considering this isn't just a pitching slump but rather a continuation of the downward spiral he''s been on for the past 4 years. So as far as trading him goes, the same GMs who wouldn't give Tampa what NH gave them are not going to give NH anything of substance for him. So the Pirates would end up having given Meadows, Glasnow and Baz for some 2nd or 3rd tier prospect that the trading partner doesn't figure to miss. So I think NH will sink or swim with Archer in hopes that someday while they have control of Archer he will somehow turn things around. I don't expect that will happen but NH basically painted himself into a corner. Dumping Archer for what little he could get for him would admit defeat and invite derision comparing what NH got for Archer to what he surrendered to TB to get him.

I'm wondering if the Archer trade could finally put NH on thin ice. I've suspected all along that his prime value to Nutting is that he deflects criticism away from the cheap owner. NH's hands are tied to a large extent because of the limited financial resources he works with. NH gets a lot of blame by fans for not fielding a better roster and Nutting has to know that if he changed GMs it wouldn't make much difference because a new GM would have the same limited resources. But firing NH might now buy Nutting some time with impatient fans by distancing himself from bad moves NH has made and making NH the scapegoat for the failing organization.

SammyKhalifa · Post by **SammyKhalifa** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:07 pm

Well no doubt it was a bad trade. But I think he lands performance-wise somewhere between where he is now and what we THOUGHT we were getting.

There have been a lot of bad trades. That happens to any GM, but for him it's been the marquee ones. I think the only one that has worked out on our end has been the McCutchen deal.

Ecbucs · Post by **Ecbucs** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:40 pm

192B27273301222B26232C2B4A0 wrote: Well no doubt it was a bad trade. But I think he lands performance-wise somewhere between where he is now and what we THOUGHT we were getting.

There have been a lot of bad trades. That happens to any GM, but for him it's been the marquee ones. I think the only one that has worked out on our end has been the McCutchen deal.

Neal is probably an average to good gm.

The Pirates need a very good to excellent gm to be successful.

DemDog · Post by **DemDog** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:57 pm

I wonder about Frazier. Per Baseball Reference he seems to be a K machine with good power but not so great OBP. I am not a stats nut so when I look at his fielding stats I can't really understand them. Most of them are in the negative so I do not think he is a talented defensive player. Some one else will have to determine that for us. He is not Arb eligible until 2021 and hits FA in 2024. I think of him being blocked in the Yankee organization. Considering all the factors what do my fellow posters think of Frazier?

Bobster21 · Post by **Bobster21** » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:58 pm

71434F4F5B694A434E4B4443220 wrote: Well no doubt it was a bad trade. But I think he lands performance-wise somewhere between where he is now and what we THOUGHT we were getting.

There have been a lot of bad trades. That happens to any GM, but for him it's been the marquee ones. I think the only one that has worked out on our end has been the McCutchen deal.
Yeah, the Cutch deal is looking very good. I'm sure SF wishes they had Reynolds and Crick right now rather than less than 1 full season of Cutch in a year they won just 73 games.

NH's problem is that he can't afford to miss on trades. Due to limited resources, the Pirates neither sign accomplished free agents (unless they have become reclamation projects) nor trade for productive players with market level contracts. Their strategy for building the team is to develop prospects via the draft or trading their better players who are approaching free agency to acquire young talent. So when players they acquire in trades don't pan out, they can't compensate by paying for a known talent to fill that void. That makes NH's trading chips too precious to give up without getting a good return.

Jason Bay was a great trading chip. NH got nothing of consequence for him. Freddie Sanchez was a batting champ. NH got nothing for him. The jury's still out on the Cole trade. The only way the Archer trade made sense was if NH knew something about why Archer's performance had fallen off for the 2+ years leading up to the trade and could correct it. I wanted to believe that was the case. Unfortunately, it was not. I don't fault NH for trading Meadows, Glasnow and Baz if he was improving the roster with the deal. There had to be someone in MLB more worthy than Archer to be had for those players.

All GMs make bad deals from time to time. But most can make up for them by spending some money to acquire good players. That's not an option for NH so he needs to be better than most at trading. Given the limited financial resources of the Pirates, they have to have a much better than average GM and manager. But I don't think that describes what they've got.