Pretty strong likelihood that there will be a King Felix for Swaggerty , Mason Martin deal soon.
Oh BTW .. I saw on twitter that Baz was hitting 101 late in his last start. Also known for a super good curve. This could "tilt" the Archer deal a bit toward Tampa Bay ? Might end up to be worse than the Brock and F Robinson deals ? I think the selling of Babe Ruth is safe but not sure about the rest.
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
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Bobster21
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
474F4C7B6D486F600E0 wrote: When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
I think NH's tenure will rightfully be defined as the GM who oversaw the end of 20 years of losing but fell well short in 3 post seasons and then oversaw the crash and burn of the team. I don't think it's fair to just credit him with 2013-2015 in which the losing ended but the result was a WC win followed by a playoff loss and then 2 WC shutout losses. Only a franchise in such sad shape that they had lost for 20 straight years would be satisfied with the results of those 3 years. And instead of building on that they went the opposite way to stink again, going from 98 to 78 wins in 2016. And the Archer deal is going to set the franchise back for many years to come. So those 3 years of 2013-15 were nice but not nearly enough and now they are back to being a joke for the foreseeable future, especially as Tampa reaps the rewards of picking NH's pocket. NH has always said his goal is to win a championship. If his crowning achievement is to merely be in the conversation for 3 years while falling well short of the goal and then overseeing the demise of the team immediately afterwards, then he earns a critical summation of his work.
I think NH's tenure will rightfully be defined as the GM who oversaw the end of 20 years of losing but fell well short in 3 post seasons and then oversaw the crash and burn of the team. I don't think it's fair to just credit him with 2013-2015 in which the losing ended but the result was a WC win followed by a playoff loss and then 2 WC shutout losses. Only a franchise in such sad shape that they had lost for 20 straight years would be satisfied with the results of those 3 years. And instead of building on that they went the opposite way to stink again, going from 98 to 78 wins in 2016. And the Archer deal is going to set the franchise back for many years to come. So those 3 years of 2013-15 were nice but not nearly enough and now they are back to being a joke for the foreseeable future, especially as Tampa reaps the rewards of picking NH's pocket. NH has always said his goal is to win a championship. If his crowning achievement is to merely be in the conversation for 3 years while falling well short of the goal and then overseeing the demise of the team immediately afterwards, then he earns a critical summation of his work.
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
01090A3D2B0E2926480 wrote: When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
In my mind, I can get the rationale of Meadows and Glasnow but having to sweeten the deal with Baz makes no sense. So, how is Syd Thrift remembered?
In my mind, I can get the rationale of Meadows and Glasnow but having to sweeten the deal with Baz makes no sense. So, how is Syd Thrift remembered?
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steve49
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
1F17142335103738560 wrote: When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
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DemDog
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
282F3E2D3E6F625B0 wrote: Pretty strong likelihood that there will be a King Felix for Swaggerty , Mason Martin deal soon.
Oh BTW .. I saw on twitter that Baz was hitting 101 late in his last start. Also known for a super good curve. This could "tilt" the Archer deal a bit toward Tampa Bay ? Might end up to be worse than the Brock and F Robinson deals ? I think the selling of Babe Ruth is safe but not sure about the rest.
Aw, come on Steve! Even TBMTIBB would not be stupid enough to make that deal! The King has arm trouble, will be a FA at the end of the season, has 5 & 10 trade rights.
Oh BTW .. I saw on twitter that Baz was hitting 101 late in his last start. Also known for a super good curve. This could "tilt" the Archer deal a bit toward Tampa Bay ? Might end up to be worse than the Brock and F Robinson deals ? I think the selling of Babe Ruth is safe but not sure about the rest.
Aw, come on Steve! Even TBMTIBB would not be stupid enough to make that deal! The King has arm trouble, will be a FA at the end of the season, has 5 & 10 trade rights.
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
4146574457060B320 wrote: When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
Good post. Archer's not a difference maker. Never was. He was a "name" and nothing more. NH fell into the trap that fans always clamor for..."make a move! We want somebody we KNOW!" Horrid, horrid, deal. And it has further ramifications. If Meadows was still here, maybe we could have moved Marte last year or this deadline. Maybe they could sell high on Reynolds. I think he's a good player, but after reading that CBS article, I'm nervous that he's having a career year in his rookie year. Think Warren Morris. That BABIP is not sustainable.
The team is just mismanaged from the top to the bottom, but at the end of the day, it all starts at the top. As long as BN is writing the checks, I fear we can expect more of the same. I haven't watched a game since the AS break. There's no fans in the stands. If it hadn't been for the entire Moran family coming to the game yesterday, would there have been a soul in the stadium?
The Pirates are an embarrassment to MLB.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
Good post. Archer's not a difference maker. Never was. He was a "name" and nothing more. NH fell into the trap that fans always clamor for..."make a move! We want somebody we KNOW!" Horrid, horrid, deal. And it has further ramifications. If Meadows was still here, maybe we could have moved Marte last year or this deadline. Maybe they could sell high on Reynolds. I think he's a good player, but after reading that CBS article, I'm nervous that he's having a career year in his rookie year. Think Warren Morris. That BABIP is not sustainable.
The team is just mismanaged from the top to the bottom, but at the end of the day, it all starts at the top. As long as BN is writing the checks, I fear we can expect more of the same. I haven't watched a game since the AS break. There's no fans in the stands. If it hadn't been for the entire Moran family coming to the game yesterday, would there have been a soul in the stadium?
The Pirates are an embarrassment to MLB.
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
747C7F485E7B5C533D0 wrote: When Baz winds up being the best player in that deal, people are really going to bemoan it. Not to mention trading Taylor Hearn for Keone Kela only to watch him either be injured or suspended. The Archer trade may well go down as NH's Bagwell deal. The sad thing is that that deal might define his time in Pittsburgh, whether it ends this year or not. His tenure really should be defined by 2013-15 and what that meant to the franchise, but it won't be. Instead, it will be defined by the way it ended.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
Good post. Archer's not a difference maker. Never was. He was a "name" and nothing more. NH fell into the trap that fans always clamor for..."make a move! We want somebody we KNOW!" Horrid, horrid, deal. And it has further ramifications. If Meadows was still here, maybe we could have moved Marte last year or this deadline. Maybe they could sell high on Reynolds. I think he's a good player, but after reading that CBS article, I'm nervous that he's having a career year in his rookie year. Think Warren Morris. That BABIP is not sustainable.
The team is just mismanaged from the top to the bottom, but at the end of the day, it all starts at the top. As long as BN is writing the checks, I fear we can expect more of the same. I haven't watched a game since the AS break. There's no fans in the stands. If it hadn't been for the entire Moran family coming to the game yesterday, would there have been a soul in the stadium?
The Pirates are an embarrassment to MLB.
The thing about Archer is that he had plusses for the Pirates that outweighed his recent performance.
The biggest being years of control at a cheap price.
If NH was going to deal for a pitcher, it had to be for someone who fit into the Pirates budget and it had to be someone who would be around for a few years. That really limited the supply pool.
Sure other teams were interested in Archer and for same reasons as the Bucs except the Bucs possibly were the only team that expected him to be the number 1 or 2 starter on their staff and thus were willing to pay a higher price.
It is another example of how the Pirates shoot themselves in the foot by going cheap just as they often go for quantity over quality.
They think they have a good process but it is flawed.
Goods points regarding NH. I would add to that the following , which I expounded upon when I was dissing this trade the day it happened.
IMO.. Huntington was forced into this horrific "no sense" deal due to the fact ownership wouldn't spend any money. Attendance was tanking and fans were pissed that nothing was being done to improve the team. Then as fate would have it , the Pirates put together a little run. Probably had a 4% chance of making the playoffs but Ownership saw it as a means to appease the fan base. So they say "here is our effort to win now." Crazy stupid as the addition of Archer could never give you a shot at winning a WS. If you can't possibly win a WS in say 2 years , why would you trade away 3 of your 4 best prospects ? Insane and I said it then.
This was done to dupe the fans , to somehow revive interest and get people back to the ball park. Incredible how stupid ... So , although it's just conjecture , I think NH was probably forced into making this type deal. Nutting is pure poison for Pirate fans. I've been a fan since 1959 and turning 70 in November. Pretty sure if I see another Pirate WS , I'll be lucky to know what a baseball game is.
Good post. Archer's not a difference maker. Never was. He was a "name" and nothing more. NH fell into the trap that fans always clamor for..."make a move! We want somebody we KNOW!" Horrid, horrid, deal. And it has further ramifications. If Meadows was still here, maybe we could have moved Marte last year or this deadline. Maybe they could sell high on Reynolds. I think he's a good player, but after reading that CBS article, I'm nervous that he's having a career year in his rookie year. Think Warren Morris. That BABIP is not sustainable.
The team is just mismanaged from the top to the bottom, but at the end of the day, it all starts at the top. As long as BN is writing the checks, I fear we can expect more of the same. I haven't watched a game since the AS break. There's no fans in the stands. If it hadn't been for the entire Moran family coming to the game yesterday, would there have been a soul in the stadium?
The Pirates are an embarrassment to MLB.
The thing about Archer is that he had plusses for the Pirates that outweighed his recent performance.
The biggest being years of control at a cheap price.
If NH was going to deal for a pitcher, it had to be for someone who fit into the Pirates budget and it had to be someone who would be around for a few years. That really limited the supply pool.
Sure other teams were interested in Archer and for same reasons as the Bucs except the Bucs possibly were the only team that expected him to be the number 1 or 2 starter on their staff and thus were willing to pay a higher price.
It is another example of how the Pirates shoot themselves in the foot by going cheap just as they often go for quantity over quality.
They think they have a good process but it is flawed.
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CarolinaBucco
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
When that trade went down I felt like Meadows and Glasnow for Archer was a fair deal.
And even though Archer has been terrible, in hindsight I still think it was a fair and reasonable trade at the time.
But when I heard that Baz was the PTBNL throw-in, I about lost my mind.
PTBNLs are NOT first-round draft picks who throw 100 mph and who are pitching for PITCHING STARVED franchises. You don't just throw those guys in.
I am still furious about it, as you can probably tell.
And even though Archer has been terrible, in hindsight I still think it was a fair and reasonable trade at the time.
But when I heard that Baz was the PTBNL throw-in, I about lost my mind.
PTBNLs are NOT first-round draft picks who throw 100 mph and who are pitching for PITCHING STARVED franchises. You don't just throw those guys in.
I am still furious about it, as you can probably tell.
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steve49
Pirate - Mariner Trade Rumor
5371627F7C797E71526573737F100 wrote: When that trade went down I felt like Meadows and Glasnow for Archer was a fair deal.
And even though Archer has been terrible, in hindsight I still think it was a fair and reasonable trade at the time.
But when I heard that Baz was the PTBNL throw-in, I about lost my mind.
PTBNLs are NOT first-round draft picks who throw 100 mph and who are pitching for PITCHING STARVED franchises. You don't just throw those guys in.
I am still furious about it, as you can probably tell.
If you look back at the posts right after the trade , I took some ridicule as I hated it even before Baz was announced as the 3rd player. I did glance back and see that I was offering to bet by the end of 2019 , Glasnow would be a better pitcher than Archer. I did want like 8-5 odds but I put it out there and didn't get any takers. I guess I need to get over it but I can't seem to do it.
And even though Archer has been terrible, in hindsight I still think it was a fair and reasonable trade at the time.
But when I heard that Baz was the PTBNL throw-in, I about lost my mind.
PTBNLs are NOT first-round draft picks who throw 100 mph and who are pitching for PITCHING STARVED franchises. You don't just throw those guys in.
I am still furious about it, as you can probably tell.
If you look back at the posts right after the trade , I took some ridicule as I hated it even before Baz was announced as the 3rd player. I did glance back and see that I was offering to bet by the end of 2019 , Glasnow would be a better pitcher than Archer. I did want like 8-5 odds but I put it out there and didn't get any takers. I guess I need to get over it but I can't seem to do it.