OnlyBucs

I really believe this offseason will be the busiest we Pirate fans have seen in a long time. There could be changes in the dugout, as well as the FO. With the breaking news announcement about Vazquez, his actions have eliminated one of the Bucs best trade assets. It is now time for the Pirates to consider tearing down the roster. The young players such as Newman, Reynolds, Tucker, and Hayes you build around. I am in favor of listening to offers for Marte, Kela, Diaz, and even Josh Bell. This team as hit rock bottom, and there is nowhere to go but up. Some of these veteran players should bring back talent in order that this organization can compete again.

I agree, tear down is now necessary. The team has basically no chance of contending next year.



Players on roster at end of this season are



below average offensively (by runs scored)

below average defensively

and not close to average pitching.



10 Jordan Lyles and Vogelsongs aren't going to help the team.



To even pretend it is possible to contend will just sets the team back farther.

The Vasquez news coming on the heels of how the team was literally eviscerated in Chicago cries out for a tear down and hopeful crawl back to respectability.



Unfortunately, the team has lost one of its best assets to trade, Vasquez. That said, the Bucs should be able to recoup some new talent for the longer term by trading Marte and Bell, and by dealing lesser pieces like Kela, Rodriguez, and Frazier. The end result will not be pretty in 2020, but the current situation is ugly and offers little hope.



Like all fans, I want to see a winner in Pittsburgh again. Frankly, I just don't see how the current assemblage of players can result in a winning season any time soon. Tear it down and try to build it back. If the Bucs don't take this approach, I view the 2020 season as one that is the equivalent of treading water will drowning approach; another 90+ loss season and your better trade assets are now a year older and less valuable.

517D7572795E697F6F1C0 wrote: The Vasquez news coming on the heels of how the team was literally eviscerated in Chicago cries out for a tear down and hopeful crawl back to respectability. 



Unfortunately, the team has lost one of its best assets to trade, Vasquez.  That said, the Bucs should be able to recoup some new talent for the longer term by trading Marte and Bell, and by dealing lesser pieces like Kela, Rodriguez, and Frazier.  The end result will not be pretty in 2020, but the current situation is ugly and offers little hope. 



Like all fans, I want to see a winner in Pittsburgh again.  Frankly, I just don't see how the current assemblage of players can result in a winning season any time soon.  Tear it down and try to build it back.  If the Bucs don't take this approach, I view the 2020 season as one that is the equivalent of treading water will drowning approach; another 90+ loss season and your better trade assets are now a year older and less valuable.   
I understand the calls for a rebuild. But I wonder if that will produce any different results under the same regime. Will they still rely on NH's drafting and player evaluation skills that have proved lacking (Kingham)? Will the minor league system be infused with more players who will be hyped as future stars only to be found no better than average if even that (Polanco)? Or players who will not reach that star potential until they have the opportunity to work with a different team (Cole, Glasnow)? Or will they develop some outstanding players but still try to fill remaining holes by dumpster diving (Jaso, Vogelsong)? And will those better players still be traded as they near free agency as their time with the Pirates ends with no real team success because of the insistence on maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls instead of adding quality players as needed? Will prospects (McGuire, Ramirez) still be given away to get another team to take a contract off Nutting's hands? Will useful players still be unloaded just to save a handful of money (Nicasio, Dickerson)? Will outstanding prospects (Meadows) still be traded for declining veterans (Archer) to enhance name recognition with the fans?



Whatever direction they decide to take, a much better job has to be done. A rebuild seems like a better idea than the same old same old. But as the organization is currently run, a rebuild seems no more likely to result in success than what we now have. So it seems to me they have a recipe for failure regardless of whether they rebuild or not. Unless the rebuild includes cleaning house of NH, Hurdle, scouts, coaches and everyone currently involved in the developmental process. And even then there is the overwhelming problem of Nuttng's refusal to spend adequately. I don't see a solution.

517C71606776612122130 wrote: The Vasquez news coming on the heels of how the team was literally eviscerated in Chicago cries out for a tear down and hopeful crawl back to respectability. 



Unfortunately, the team has lost one of its best assets to trade, Vasquez.  That said, the Bucs should be able to recoup some new talent for the longer term by trading Marte and Bell, and by dealing lesser pieces like Kela, Rodriguez, and Frazier.  The end result will not be pretty in 2020, but the current situation is ugly and offers little hope. 



Like all fans, I want to see a winner in Pittsburgh again.  Frankly, I just don't see how the current assemblage of players can result in a winning season any time soon.  Tear it down and try to build it back.  If the Bucs don't take this approach, I view the 2020 season as one that is the equivalent of treading water will drowning approach; another 90+ loss season and your better trade assets are now a year older and less valuable.   
I understand the calls for a rebuild. But I wonder if that will produce any different results under the same regime. Will they still rely on NH's drafting and player evaluation skills that have proved lacking (Kingham)? Will the minor league system be infused with more players who will be hyped as future stars only to be found no better than average if even that (Polanco)? Or players who will not reach that star potential until they have the opportunity to work with a different team (Cole, Glasnow)? Or will they develop some outstanding players but still try to fill remaining holes by dumpster diving (Jaso, Vogelsong)? And will those better players still be traded as they near free agency as their time with the Pirates ends with no real team success because of the insistence on maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls instead of adding quality players as needed? Will prospects (McGuire, Ramirez) still be given away to get another team to take a contract off Nutting's hands? Will useful players still be unloaded just to save a handful of money (Nicasio, Dickerson)? Will outstanding prospects (Meadows) still be traded for declining veterans (Archer) to enhance name recognition with the fans?



Whatever direction they decide to take, a much better job has to be done. A rebuild seems like a better idea than the same old same old. But as the organization is currently run, a rebuild seems no more likely to result in success than what we now have. So it seems to me they have a recipe for failure regardless of whether they rebuild or not. Unless the rebuild includes cleaning house of NH, Hurdle, scouts, coaches and everyone currently involved in the developmental process. And even then there is the overwhelming problem of Nuttng's refusal to spend adequately. I don't see a solution.




If you are going for a full rebuild, you not only have to trade away your high end veteran assets (Bell, Marte), but dump the GM and the manager.  I'm not sold that Bell brings that monster return that Vasquez would have brought.



I really can't think straight now with all the blunders; the playing the victim card, but continue to say they want to win a title.  I'm interested in hearing or seeing how the FO sells 2020 now.  the payroll will be down once again.  Cervelli is gone; Dickerson is gone; Liriano will be gone.  Isn't that 20 million between those three?  Cabrera will be gone.  Nutting saves on the Rivero/Vasquez money if he continues to be on the whatever non pay list that MLB put him on.  Chisenhall is gone.  Lyles is gone.  This is a bit over 25 million.  Will it be reused?  I will go out on a limb and say our best offseason acquisition will be Jason Castro.



My interest in this organization has gone to indifference.  I have been a big time fan and have wanted a winner.  I don't see it happening for another 20 years or unless Nutting sells.  Status quo is what I'm guessing and that won't work.

0E1E1F283E3E325D0 wrote: The Vasquez news coming on the heels of how the team was literally eviscerated in Chicago cries out for a tear down and hopeful crawl back to respectability. 



Unfortunately, the team has lost one of its best assets to trade, Vasquez.  That said, the Bucs should be able to recoup some new talent for the longer term by trading Marte and Bell, and by dealing lesser pieces like Kela, Rodriguez, and Frazier.  The end result will not be pretty in 2020, but the current situation is ugly and offers little hope. 



Like all fans, I want to see a winner in Pittsburgh again.  Frankly, I just don't see how the current assemblage of players can result in a winning season any time soon.  Tear it down and try to build it back.  If the Bucs don't take this approach, I view the 2020 season as one that is the equivalent of treading water will drowning approach; another 90+ loss season and your better trade assets are now a year older and less valuable.   
I understand the calls for a rebuild. But I wonder if that will produce any different results under the same regime. Will they still rely on NH's drafting and player evaluation skills that have proved lacking (Kingham)? Will the minor league system be infused with more players who will be hyped as future stars only to be found no better than average if even that (Polanco)? Or players who will not reach that star potential until they have the opportunity to work with a different team (Cole, Glasnow)? Or will they develop some outstanding players but still try to fill remaining holes by dumpster diving (Jaso, Vogelsong)? And will those better players still be traded as they near free agency as their time with the Pirates ends with no real team success because of the insistence on maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls instead of adding quality players as needed? Will prospects (McGuire, Ramirez) still be given away to get another team to take a contract off Nutting's hands? Will useful players still be unloaded just to save a handful of money (Nicasio, Dickerson)? Will outstanding prospects (Meadows) still be traded for declining veterans (Archer) to enhance name recognition with the fans?



Whatever direction they decide to take, a much better job has to be done. A rebuild seems like a better idea than the same old same old. But as the organization is currently run, a rebuild seems no more likely to result in success than what we now have. So it seems to me they have a recipe for failure regardless of whether they rebuild or not. Unless the rebuild includes cleaning house of NH, Hurdle, scouts, coaches and everyone currently involved in the developmental process. And even then there is the overwhelming problem of Nuttng's refusal to spend adequately. I don't see a solution.




If you are going for a full rebuild, you not only have to trade away your high end veteran assets (Bell, Marte), but dump the GM and the manager.  I'm not sold that Bell brings that monster return that Vasquez would have brought.



I really can't think straight now with all the blunders; the playing the victim card, but continue to say they want to win a title.  I'm interested in hearing or seeing how the FO sells 2020 now.  the payroll will be down once again.  Cervelli is gone; Dickerson is gone; Liriano will be gone.  Isn't that 20 million between those three?  Cabrera will be gone.  Nutting saves on the Rivero/Vasquez money if he continues to be on the whatever non pay list that MLB put him on.  Chisenhall is gone.  Lyles is gone.  This is a bit over 25 million.  Will it be reused?  I will go out on a limb and say our best offseason acquisition will be Jason Castro.



My interesting in this organization has gone to indifference.  I have been a big time fan and have wanted a winner.  I don't see it happening for another 20 years or unless Nutting sells.  Status quo is what I'm guessing and that won't work.




How would you like to be a Pirate season ticket salesman?

5D7B7A6D7B6B180 wrote: The Vasquez news coming on the heels of how the team was literally eviscerated in Chicago cries out for a tear down and hopeful crawl back to respectability. 



Unfortunately, the team has lost one of its best assets to trade, Vasquez.  That said, the Bucs should be able to recoup some new talent for the longer term by trading Marte and Bell, and by dealing lesser pieces like Kela, Rodriguez, and Frazier.  The end result will not be pretty in 2020, but the current situation is ugly and offers little hope. 



Like all fans, I want to see a winner in Pittsburgh again.  Frankly, I just don't see how the current assemblage of players can result in a winning season any time soon.  Tear it down and try to build it back.  If the Bucs don't take this approach, I view the 2020 season as one that is the equivalent of treading water will drowning approach; another 90+ loss season and your better trade assets are now a year older and less valuable.   
I understand the calls for a rebuild. But I wonder if that will produce any different results under the same regime. Will they still rely on NH's drafting and player evaluation skills that have proved lacking (Kingham)? Will the minor league system be infused with more players who will be hyped as future stars only to be found no better than average if even that (Polanco)? Or players who will not reach that star potential until they have the opportunity to work with a different team (Cole, Glasnow)? Or will they develop some outstanding players but still try to fill remaining holes by dumpster diving (Jaso, Vogelsong)? And will those better players still be traded as they near free agency as their time with the Pirates ends with no real team success because of the insistence on maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls instead of adding quality players as needed? Will prospects (McGuire, Ramirez) still be given away to get another team to take a contract off Nutting's hands? Will useful players still be unloaded just to save a handful of money (Nicasio, Dickerson)? Will outstanding prospects (Meadows) still be traded for declining veterans (Archer) to enhance name recognition with the fans?



Whatever direction they decide to take, a much better job has to be done. A rebuild seems like a better idea than the same old same old. But as the organization is currently run, a rebuild seems no more likely to result in success than what we now have. So it seems to me they have a recipe for failure regardless of whether they rebuild or not. Unless the rebuild includes cleaning house of NH, Hurdle, scouts, coaches and everyone currently involved in the developmental process. And even then there is the overwhelming problem of Nuttng's refusal to spend adequately. I don't see a solution.




If you are going for a full rebuild, you not only have to trade away your high end veteran assets (Bell, Marte), but dump the GM and the manager.  I'm not sold that Bell brings that monster return that Vasquez would have brought.



I really can't think straight now with all the blunders; the playing the victim card, but continue to say they want to win a title.  I'm interested in hearing or seeing how the FO sells 2020 now.  the payroll will be down once again.  Cervelli is gone; Dickerson is gone; Liriano will be gone.  Isn't that 20 million between those three?  Cabrera will be gone.  Nutting saves on the Rivero/Vasquez money if he continues to be on the whatever non pay list that MLB put him on.  Chisenhall is gone.  Lyles is gone.  This is a bit over 25 million.  Will it be reused?  I will go out on a limb and say our best offseason acquisition will be Jason Castro.



My interesting in this organization has gone to indifference.  I have been a big time fan and have wanted a winner.  I don't see it happening for another 20 years or unless Nutting sells.  Status quo is what I'm guessing and that won't work.




How would you like to be a Pirate season ticket salesman?


I couldn't do it with a straight face. I'd need 20 showers per day.

I’m disgusted by this team. Utterly disgusted. I don’t blame management for Vazquez. That’s 100% on him. Now, if others knew and did nothing, that’s a different story. this could get ugly for a lot of people in the organization. Players, coaches, all the way up to the top. But the infighting, the poor play. The dearth of talent in the system...top to bottom, the Pirates are in worse shape than an expansion team. They have some nice pieces, but no one who will be a difference maker. They need to tear the entire thing down. Literally EVERYONE goes on the trading block. And I mean EVERYONE.



Realistically, I thought we were three-four years away from contending, and that was assuming Vazquez could bring a good return in the offseason. Now that he'll be closing for the Florida Correctional System's slowpitch softball team, I think we're probably five years from even hoping to be able to field a competitive team.

The Vázquez and a cleaning house of the organization are two separate situations. With all that has gone on inside the clubhouse this season such as fights, suspensions and fines the interest in the team is very low. As someone mentioned how do you sell tickets for next year, or will PNC want to extend the naming rights to the ballpark? This season has hit bottom just like in 1985 with the drug trials. After that season a new manager, Jim Leyland was hired, as well as a new GM Syd Thrift. I would not be surprised if a new manager and GM lead the Pirates in 2020.

4F4342191019111C1B041E290 wrote: The Vázquez and a cleaning house of the organization are two separate situations. With all that has gone on inside the clubhouse this season such as fights, suspensions and fines the interest in the team is very low. As someone mentioned how do you sell tickets for next year, or will PNC want to extend the naming rights to the ballpark? This season has hit bottom just like in 1985 with the drug trials. After that season a new manager, Jim Leyland was hired, as well as a new GM Syd Thrift. I would not be surprised if a new manager and GM lead the Pirates in 2020.


I hate to be a contrarian, but Neal will be back. Bottom line, Neal serves Nutting's purposes.