Awkward!
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Awkward!
There are abundant posts on here that can be summarized briefly by saying Nutting is cheap. We've questioned NH but at the same time it felt a little half-hearted, as we suspected he could do better with more money. With Tampa's win last night, we have a slightly different picture. Only one team had a lower payroll last year than the Pirates, and they've just completed their second 90+ win season in a row and are securely in the playoffs (at least until they get to Houston). I've always figured NH made basically logical decisions but was the unluckiest general manager ever seen near baseball. His moves seem to backfire in the weirdest, most improbable ways. So what do you think - is he unlucky, or just bad?
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rucker59@gmail.com
Awkward!
If Tampa were our AAA team all would be well. It would mean that Meadows and that big tall pitcher would be getting a call up next year after Super Arb passed.
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
Awkward!
3F382E26283F78740D2A202C2421632E22204D0 wrote: If Tampa were our AAA team all would be well. It would mean that Meadows and that big tall pitcher would be getting a call up next year after Super Arb passed.
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
the deal with Tampa shows the Bucs failed in evaluating their own players and the player they got back. Every gm makes bad deals but this one highlights that the Bucs mediocre record is deserved.
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
the deal with Tampa shows the Bucs failed in evaluating their own players and the player they got back. Every gm makes bad deals but this one highlights that the Bucs mediocre record is deserved.
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Bobster21
Awkward!
735554435545360 wrote: If Tampa were our AAA team all would be well. It would mean that Meadows and that big tall pitcher would be getting a call up next year after Super Arb passed.
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
the deal with Tampa shows the Bucs failed in evaluating their own players and the player they got back. Every gm makes bad deals but this one highlights that the Bucs mediocre record is deserved.
Sadly, that is true. Admittedly I was ready to give up on Glasnow. But it's not my job to make that determination. NH gets paid for that and he blew it. And I was aware Archer had regressed considerably since his 3 very good years of 2013-15. But I gave NH credit for knowing something I didn't (which he should). I assumed there were reasons for that regression which NH understood and could resolve or else that trade would not have been made. But again NH blew it. Archer's regression just continues to the extent that his tenure with the Pirates has been the worst period of his career. And he now has the advantage of pitching to pitchers instead of DHs. NH also evaluated Newman, apparently on the basis of a SSS in 2018, and decided his #1 draft pick was not starting SS material. They spent ST converting Newman to a utility player while trading Luplow to make Gonzalez the starting SS even tho Gonzalez had only been a utility guy with Cleveland. Then he was forced to play Newman who turned out great. Also, when Dickerson was injured in April it was Jason Martin who was recalled. It wasn't until Marte was also injured that Reynolds was recalled. Reynolds turned out great, Martin not so much. But Martin was NH's 1st choice.
The team's philosophy is to develop or trade for young players who will become productive. At least NH identified Reynolds as a player to get in the Cutch deal. But Crick is problematic because he has had very poor control his entire pro career except 2018 with the Bucs. But that was his career outlier. This year he resumed his normal wildness. For Cole they got Musgrove who was a problematic starter (but good reliever) with the Astros. He's a a likeable guy with a great attitude but inconsistent on the mound. Time will tell with him. Feliz is a waste in the BP. Too early to tell about Jason Martin but he only hit .259 at AAA this year. And Moran is a decent hitter, poor fielder and lacks the HR power they hoped for. Reynolds is quite a find but NH can't be missing on that many players if he wants to build a good team following his own strategy.
But the Rays are actually a MLB team and they absolutely fleeced Neal. So I hate to say this, but Neal has flat out failed terribly.
(I still shake my head over Meadows. Can’t believe the way they “managed” him in Pittsburgh and can’t believe they traded him. I was able to watch Meadows in 2017 Spring Training and even I could see this kid was going to be special. I remember reporting to OBN that he is in a different class of potential and talent from anyone else on the field and that included Bell. I don’t know that much about talent evaluation but he made it easy to forecast. But the Pirates cut lose a franchise player and for a very poor return).
the deal with Tampa shows the Bucs failed in evaluating their own players and the player they got back. Every gm makes bad deals but this one highlights that the Bucs mediocre record is deserved.
Sadly, that is true. Admittedly I was ready to give up on Glasnow. But it's not my job to make that determination. NH gets paid for that and he blew it. And I was aware Archer had regressed considerably since his 3 very good years of 2013-15. But I gave NH credit for knowing something I didn't (which he should). I assumed there were reasons for that regression which NH understood and could resolve or else that trade would not have been made. But again NH blew it. Archer's regression just continues to the extent that his tenure with the Pirates has been the worst period of his career. And he now has the advantage of pitching to pitchers instead of DHs. NH also evaluated Newman, apparently on the basis of a SSS in 2018, and decided his #1 draft pick was not starting SS material. They spent ST converting Newman to a utility player while trading Luplow to make Gonzalez the starting SS even tho Gonzalez had only been a utility guy with Cleveland. Then he was forced to play Newman who turned out great. Also, when Dickerson was injured in April it was Jason Martin who was recalled. It wasn't until Marte was also injured that Reynolds was recalled. Reynolds turned out great, Martin not so much. But Martin was NH's 1st choice.
The team's philosophy is to develop or trade for young players who will become productive. At least NH identified Reynolds as a player to get in the Cutch deal. But Crick is problematic because he has had very poor control his entire pro career except 2018 with the Bucs. But that was his career outlier. This year he resumed his normal wildness. For Cole they got Musgrove who was a problematic starter (but good reliever) with the Astros. He's a a likeable guy with a great attitude but inconsistent on the mound. Time will tell with him. Feliz is a waste in the BP. Too early to tell about Jason Martin but he only hit .259 at AAA this year. And Moran is a decent hitter, poor fielder and lacks the HR power they hoped for. Reynolds is quite a find but NH can't be missing on that many players if he wants to build a good team following his own strategy.
Awkward!
While few have the advantage of getting a do-over, imagine how much different the Bucs' horizon would be if something along the following lines happened
1) Bucs don't do the Archer deal. Thus, Meadows, Glasnow and Baz all remain Pirates.
2) But, in looking at landing a veteran major league pitcher, they instead trade for Baumgartner. Baumgartner joins the starting rotation and provides similar production to what he did in SF this year: 200+ innings, 203 strike-outs, 3.9 ERA, and a 9-9 record. Bucs would have pursued acquiring Baumgartner by offering Marte (would have been even better had it been Polanco and other talent); Giants desperately needed a major league CF'er. Bucs should also have received some additional minor league talent along with Baumgartner.
But, that is not all. Bucs traded Cervelli in the off-season and saved anywhere from $5 - $10 mil in salary relief that could have been used to bolster the team.
And, instead of being shamed while pitching for the Pirates, Bucs did a deal with LA this past July that yielded other young talent rather than Lowe.
So --- in the course of less than a year.
Bucs add Baumgartner to the starting rotation and hang onto Glasnow who offers depth and promise. They also pick up someone like May in the deal with LA.
They lose Marte, but now both Reynolds and Meadows are available to play CF & Lf. Reynolds offered slightly greater production than Marte.
They are spending less, have a better starting rotation, an equal or better outfield that is cheap, and Baz and other talent from LA are in the minors.
1) Bucs don't do the Archer deal. Thus, Meadows, Glasnow and Baz all remain Pirates.
2) But, in looking at landing a veteran major league pitcher, they instead trade for Baumgartner. Baumgartner joins the starting rotation and provides similar production to what he did in SF this year: 200+ innings, 203 strike-outs, 3.9 ERA, and a 9-9 record. Bucs would have pursued acquiring Baumgartner by offering Marte (would have been even better had it been Polanco and other talent); Giants desperately needed a major league CF'er. Bucs should also have received some additional minor league talent along with Baumgartner.
But, that is not all. Bucs traded Cervelli in the off-season and saved anywhere from $5 - $10 mil in salary relief that could have been used to bolster the team.
And, instead of being shamed while pitching for the Pirates, Bucs did a deal with LA this past July that yielded other young talent rather than Lowe.
So --- in the course of less than a year.
Bucs add Baumgartner to the starting rotation and hang onto Glasnow who offers depth and promise. They also pick up someone like May in the deal with LA.
They lose Marte, but now both Reynolds and Meadows are available to play CF & Lf. Reynolds offered slightly greater production than Marte.
They are spending less, have a better starting rotation, an equal or better outfield that is cheap, and Baz and other talent from LA are in the minors.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Awkward!
6C40484F4463544252210 wrote: While few have the advantage of getting a do-over, imagine how much different the Bucs' horizon would be if something along the following lines happened
1) Bucs don't do the Archer deal. Thus, Meadows, Glasnow and Baz all remain Pirates.
2) But, in looking at landing a veteran major league pitcher, they instead trade for Baumgartner. Baumgartner joins the starting rotation and provides similar production to what he did in SF this year: 200+ innings, 203 strike-outs, 3.9 ERA, and a 9-9 record. Bucs would have pursued acquiring Baumgartner by offering Marte (would have been even better had it been Polanco and other talent); Giants desperately needed a major league CF'er. Bucs should also have received some additional minor league talent along with Baumgartner.
But, that is not all. Bucs traded Cervelli in the off-season and saved anywhere from $5 - $10 mil in salary relief that could have been used to bolster the team.
And, instead of being shamed while pitching for the Pirates, Bucs did a deal with LA this past July that yielded other young talent rather than Lowe.
So --- in the course of less than a year.
Bucs add Baumgartner to the starting rotation and hang onto Glasnow who offers depth and promise. They also pick up someone like May in the deal with LA.
They lose Marte, but now both Reynolds and Meadows are available to play CF & Lf. Reynolds offered slightly greater production than Marte.
They are spending less, have a better starting rotation, an equal or better outfield that is cheap, and Baz and other talent from LA are in the minors.
You nailed it. What you described was a definite possibility, could have happened. The key was hanging onto Marte and Polanco over Meadows. I could never understand Neal’s Infatuation with those two over other veterans he never hesitated to move. In the worse move of the century he keeps the veteran who is a total Enigma and moves the young franchise player.
Just a stunning miss.
1) Bucs don't do the Archer deal. Thus, Meadows, Glasnow and Baz all remain Pirates.
2) But, in looking at landing a veteran major league pitcher, they instead trade for Baumgartner. Baumgartner joins the starting rotation and provides similar production to what he did in SF this year: 200+ innings, 203 strike-outs, 3.9 ERA, and a 9-9 record. Bucs would have pursued acquiring Baumgartner by offering Marte (would have been even better had it been Polanco and other talent); Giants desperately needed a major league CF'er. Bucs should also have received some additional minor league talent along with Baumgartner.
But, that is not all. Bucs traded Cervelli in the off-season and saved anywhere from $5 - $10 mil in salary relief that could have been used to bolster the team.
And, instead of being shamed while pitching for the Pirates, Bucs did a deal with LA this past July that yielded other young talent rather than Lowe.
So --- in the course of less than a year.
Bucs add Baumgartner to the starting rotation and hang onto Glasnow who offers depth and promise. They also pick up someone like May in the deal with LA.
They lose Marte, but now both Reynolds and Meadows are available to play CF & Lf. Reynolds offered slightly greater production than Marte.
They are spending less, have a better starting rotation, an equal or better outfield that is cheap, and Baz and other talent from LA are in the minors.
You nailed it. What you described was a definite possibility, could have happened. The key was hanging onto Marte and Polanco over Meadows. I could never understand Neal’s Infatuation with those two over other veterans he never hesitated to move. In the worse move of the century he keeps the veteran who is a total Enigma and moves the young franchise player.
Just a stunning miss.