OnlyBucs

I know, I'm 'm a glutton for punishment here. I still think these moves are rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I still don't trust Nutting to open up the purse strings (not go full Yankee, but go full KC).



I think we need at least 2 starting pitchers; 1 catcher; 2 OF and a bunch of bullpen arms.



I'm eliminating the obvious names that we are affording or even trying.



C - Ramos, d"Arnaud or Romine. No excuse why we can't get one of those



3B - don't think we can afford the good or decent on the market, so I'm not even putting anything down.



RF: With Polanco's injury history, we need one. Would Kole Calhoun be in the price range? Eric Thames? Would you take a chance on Puig? You need the right manager though with him.



RP - Delin Betances could be good value. McHugh, Hughes. I would love to get this Daniel Hudson back, but he has probably priced himself out. I don't see a closer, so I'm thinking Kela is kept.



SP - unfortunately reclamation projects - King Felix; Porcello; Wacha; Gio G.; Eickhoff could be intriguing. The name that interests me more and he might be the next Liriano type - Teheran. Seems up and down and walked a ton this year.



Just some thoughts. Have no idea what is realistic now, but none of those names shouldn't be unrealistic.

To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table.

In a best case scenario, I think you need to prioritize the list. For me, we need pitchers more than a catcher. More than an outfielder, as well. It will be interesting to see how minor league players are moved forward. Hayes would be nice at third.

597479686F7E69292A1B0 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good. A lot have jumped ship. In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante. If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base. Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.

6979784F5959553A0 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good.  A lot have jumped ship.  In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante.  If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base.  Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.




You make a good point about Arnold and Cherrington. Probably the third guy from Houston too. these guys are going to be considered for other spots and won't take Pirates job unless they believe they can be successful.

7F6F6E594F4F432C0 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good.  A lot have jumped ship.  In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante.  If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base.  Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.


I doubt this. No owner is going to let an employee dictate the terms that they operate their business on. As one of the handful of GM job opportunities, the Pirates have the leverage.



However, I do think it is entirely possible that the candidate pitches include team development plans that include larger expenditures, but no deals.



(Which might not seem like much of a difference, but I think it is.)

0A2D2605480 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good.  A lot have jumped ship.  In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante.  If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base.  Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.


I doubt this. No owner is going to let an employee dictate the terms that they operate their business on. As one of the handful of GM job opportunities, the Pirates have the leverage.



However, I do think it is entirely possible that the candidate pitches include team development plans that include larger expenditures, but no deals.



(Which might not seem like much of a difference, but I think it is.)




USC had a rough time getting an AD because five or six people that interviewed wanted an agreement that they could hire Urban Meyer as the head football coach. Cincinnati's AD accepted this gig and then was told he couldn't hire Meyer, so he took back the acceptance and threatened to stay. Some sort of agreement between the USC President and Bohn happened and now he is the AD at USCw. Fact is this, no good person in their right mind should even consider this gig without some agreements in writing. I was reading a story from TheAthletic regarding Boras' thoughts on the Pirates. He brought up when Cole was signed, Bob made some comments regarding plans and what was going to happen. Needless to say, Boras said they weren't close to what he said.



If both of these guys ask about payroll increases and Bob brings in financial flexibility (both of these guys know what that means with regards to Nutting), say that pass on it ... then ...

0919182F3939355A0 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good.  A lot have jumped ship.  In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante.  If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base.  Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.


I doubt this. No owner is going to let an employee dictate the terms that they operate their business on. As one of the handful of GM job opportunities, the Pirates have the leverage.



However, I do think it is entirely possible that the candidate pitches include team development plans that include larger expenditures, but no deals.



(Which might not seem like much of a difference, but I think it is.)




USC had a rough time getting an AD because five or six people that interviewed wanted an agreement that they could hire Urban Meyer as the head football coach.  Cincinnati's AD accepted this gig and then was told he couldn't hire Meyer, so he took back the acceptance and threatened to stay.  Some sort of agreement between the USC President and Bohn happened and now he is the AD at USCw.  Fact is this, no good person in their right mind should even consider this gig without some agreements in writing.  I was reading a story from TheAthletic regarding Boras' thoughts on the Pirates.  He brought up when Cole was signed, Bob made some comments regarding plans and what was going to happen.  Needless to say, Boras said they weren't close to what he said.



If both of these guys ask about payroll increases and Bob brings in financial flexibility (both of these guys know what that means with regards to Nutting), say that pass on it ... then ...
I think these are valid points. Nutting is in the driver's seat for his hire but the candidates can put conditions on being hired if they don't mind being passed over for that reason. I can't imagine Cherington, who has experience as a GM for the Red Sox, taking a job if he knows he will never be able to compete due to an unwillingness of Nutting to change his spending ways. Cherington could decide that there will be other, better opportunities. But the other leading candidate, Matt Arnold, is trying to make the leap from assistant GM with a small market team to GM with a similar market. If Arnold doesn't get in the door with the Pirates who knows when he'll get another opportunity? So I suspect Cherington might well ask for some assurances from Nutting as a condition for taking the job while Arnold would not.

0D202D3C3B2A3D7D7E4F0 wrote: To me, those sound like reasonable options. My concern is that Nutting seemed to indicate the only change in non-spending would be to do a better job of explaining why he won't. Also, they have a lot of players due arbitration raises. So I wonder if even reasonable options are off the table. 


I think there has to be some sort of agreement in which Nutting will have to up his payroll to get Cherrington for starters.  Arnold probably too since Millwaukee is spending dough.  Close to 30 million will come off the books from last year.  Cervelli, Dickerson, Vasquez, Cabrera, Liriano, Chisenhall, Lyles  and all the other non factors. I wouldn't be stunned if they traded Marte.



Just throwing some names out there for discussion purposes since none of these guys should be off limits because they command too much.  I hesitated putting Teheran in there, but if he went back to Atlanta, he would be the #4.  He is at best a #3 or #4 most places.  He would be #1 by far here.



Bottom line, if Bob is making these moves just to reshuffle the deck chairs, then he will lose this fan base for good.  A lot have jumped ship.  In order to get this base back, he needs to up the ante.  If not and these moves are for show, he is done for good as far as the fan base.  Some segments of this base have guarded optimism (not me) because moves have been made.


I doubt this. No owner is going to let an employee dictate the terms that they operate their business on. As one of the handful of GM job opportunities, the Pirates have the leverage.



However, I do think it is entirely possible that the candidate pitches include team development plans that include larger expenditures, but no deals.



(Which might not seem like much of a difference, but I think it is.)




USC had a rough time getting an AD because five or six people that interviewed wanted an agreement that they could hire Urban Meyer as the head football coach.  Cincinnati's AD accepted this gig and then was told he couldn't hire Meyer, so he took back the acceptance and threatened to stay.  Some sort of agreement between the USC President and Bohn happened and now he is the AD at USCw.  Fact is this, no good person in their right mind should even consider this gig without some agreements in writing.  I was reading a story from TheAthletic regarding Boras' thoughts on the Pirates.  He brought up when Cole was signed, Bob made some comments regarding plans and what was going to happen.  Needless to say, Boras said they weren't close to what he said.



If both of these guys ask about payroll increases and Bob brings in financial flexibility (both of these guys know what that means with regards to Nutting), say that pass on it ... then ...
I think these are valid points. Nutting is in the driver's seat for his hire but the candidates can put conditions on being hired if they don't mind being passed over for that reason. I can't imagine Cherington, who has experience as a GM for the Red Sox, taking a job if he knows he will never be able to compete due to an unwillingness of Nutting to change his spending ways. Cherington could decide that there will be other, better opportunities. But the other leading candidate, Matt Arnold, is trying to make the leap from assistant GM with a small market team to GM with a similar market. If Arnold doesn't get in the door with the Pirates who knows when he'll get another opportunity? So I suspect Cherington might well ask for some assurances from Nutting as a condition for taking the job while Arnold would not.




Cherington left the Sox after the 2015 season. Went to teach at Columbia. Hired by Toronto as an assistant GM after the 2016 season. So. . .



He couldn't get a GM job after the 2016, 2017 and 2018 seasons and no one has hired after the 2019 season. If he wants to be a GM again, I don't think he has a lot of leverage.



Not that this is a comment on his suitability or lack thereof for the job. I really don't know.

Arnold is working for a much better organization. If offered and he passes, I'm sure he will get another opportunity next year. Hell, AGM in Toronto isn't a bad gig. Neither dude has to take this job if they feel like no changes are going to be made for payroll.