Per MLBTRs Bucs to Build not Rebuild
I have to say that is a new spin on the Bucs status. Now does he intend to dig and pour a new foundation of does he have one already done so that he can build on top of that foundation?
Ben Cherington say . . .
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Ben Cherington say . . .
I put this in the "Has anything changed?" thread. Just more GM double-talk. He says it's not a rebuild unless you're tearing down a good team. The toughest thing about working for Nutting must be the BS you have to spew to the public. 
Ben Cherington say . . .
Instead of double talk, it would be so refreshing to hear a GM talk like this:
"“With our window opening, [ownership has] stepped up in a big way to give us the resources to finish the transactions we’ve completed this offseason and put this team in a position to compete and perform at a championship level in our division,” president of baseball operations Dick Williams said."
"“With our window opening, [ownership has] stepped up in a big way to give us the resources to finish the transactions we’ve completed this offseason and put this team in a position to compete and perform at a championship level in our division,” president of baseball operations Dick Williams said."
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3643
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Ben Cherington say . . .
Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
Ben Cherington say . . .
666A6B3039303835322D37000 wrote: Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
Ben Cherington say . . .
64795D5F51340 wrote: Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
Nice comparison to other players, the Pirates do have talent but the key is how good is their talent compared to other teams. For the next couple of years at least the Bucs are going to be outgunned almost every game.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
Nice comparison to other players, the Pirates do have talent but the key is how good is their talent compared to other teams. For the next couple of years at least the Bucs are going to be outgunned almost every game.
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NewMexicoLobo
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:53 am
Ben Cherington say . . .
Getting back to what he said, I'd have preferred simply "We're going to make our team better".
Not sure why everyone gets hung up over "build" or "rebuild". Right now the Pirates stink and they need to get better, no matter how it happens.
Not sure why everyone gets hung up over "build" or "rebuild". Right now the Pirates stink and they need to get better, no matter how it happens.
Ben Cherington say . . .
312C080A04610 wrote: Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Ben Cherington say . . .
151D1E293F1A3D325C0 wrote: Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
Maybe, but I think a lot of things went wrong last season. If I were a gambler I'd take the over on the number of wins for next year. I'm not saying they're good--just that they're not terrible (which is not where you want to be anyhow).
Of course I tend to err on the side of middle-of-the-road on such things (we're never as good as people say or as bad as people say).
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
Maybe, but I think a lot of things went wrong last season. If I were a gambler I'd take the over on the number of wins for next year. I'm not saying they're good--just that they're not terrible (which is not where you want to be anyhow).
Of course I tend to err on the side of middle-of-the-road on such things (we're never as good as people say or as bad as people say).
Ben Cherington say . . .
7A7271465075525D330 wrote: Maybe I am nieve, but I don’t think they need a rebuild. There is a foundation in place with the following players: Reynolds, Newman, Tucker, Hayes, Musgrove, Keller, Williams, Kuhl, Bell, and possibly Polanco. Sure they need to add players, but there are some players like Cruz in the pipeline. I expect some trades between now and July 31. Guys like Kela, Frazier, and possibly Archer will be moved for pieces of the puzzle. Remember when Syd Thrift was our GM he traded guys like Rich Rhoden and Tony Pena for players who made large contributions to the early 1990’s teams. I have faith in Ben Cherington that he can add players to the foundation that is currently in place.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
I agree. If I were in charge, I'd trade Bell, Frazier and Musgrove now. I'd hope that this season can rebuild some value in Williams and Archer and trade them also. I'd probably over pay some FAs on one year deals with the intent to trade them for prospects at the deadline. Particularly relief pitchers because everyone always needs them and overpays for them at the deadline. You can only win playoff series with top level pitching. The Pirates may have that in their pipeline (especially after reading the P2 article today on sub-20 year old pitchers). But that is 3-4 years off at least.
The problem is, out of those players you named, Bell is the only All Star in that group. And the pitch is a real mess, even if they over perform. In general, it is a group of nice, solid major leaguers. In some cases, there are + skills (like Hayes' defense, Reynolds contact skill, etc). But other than Bell, there are no impact players in that group. I don't think you can win playoff series without impact players, especially pitchers. There are no pitchers in that group that will win a WC game against anyone else, let along 3 guys that will carry you through a division series. Running out Musgrove, Williams, and Archer against Soroka, Foltynewicz, and Hamels... or Scherzer, Strasburg, and Corbin...or Beuhler, Kershaw, Maeda...or any other playoff worthy team.
I just don't think they are as close as some here suggest.
I think the Pirates are as far away as can be. I look at this team, and the entirety of the organization, and I literally see a team that is worse off than most expansion franchises. All of the guys you mentioned are decent supporting cast/role players on a contending team. Even Bell, I'm not convinced anyway, is a difference maker. He's got some nice pop, but beyond that, does he bring anything to the table? Championship teams are built around MVP caliber players. The Pirates don't have one, and they don't have anyone in the pipeline who, at least at the present time, profiles as one either. I really believe, that, best case scenario, the Pirates are at least four years away, likely five. That's why I think they should look to trade Bell for sure, and probably even Newman and Reynolds.
I agree. If I were in charge, I'd trade Bell, Frazier and Musgrove now. I'd hope that this season can rebuild some value in Williams and Archer and trade them also. I'd probably over pay some FAs on one year deals with the intent to trade them for prospects at the deadline. Particularly relief pitchers because everyone always needs them and overpays for them at the deadline. You can only win playoff series with top level pitching. The Pirates may have that in their pipeline (especially after reading the P2 article today on sub-20 year old pitchers). But that is 3-4 years off at least.