Sunday/yesterday(:?) in the Trib Online, I read a commentary written by a guy that I have disagreed with more often than agreed- John Steigerwald. In addition to disagreeing with him, I've had less than complimentary opinions about his ideology at times.
In every past discussion on the subject of whether Danny Murtaugh is deserving of enshrinement at Cooperstown, I've thought- no.
Can't say why. It's one of those things where- I know a HOFer when I see one, and he's not it.
In the article this week, I have to admit- Steigerwald presented a very good argument, in my opinion. I think it is strong enough to have swayed me- along with me going to BaseballReference.com for more ammunition. Even during the years when the Bucs didn't do as well, they were still pretty good. But, a lot of HOF managers had very good players, too. It's not like Murtaugh was the only guy to have fantastic players.
This leaves me with two things-
A) There's a saying out there that- why does a guy get looked at one way in 2020, when he was looked at the other way for the previous decades? If I think he's good today, why didn't I think he was that good back in the previous millenium?
and
B) What do others on here think?
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
I believe he belongs. He took over the laughingstock of MLB on August 3, 1957. They were 36-67. They hadn't had a winning season since 1948 and their records since then were 71-83, 57-96, 64-90, 42-112, 50-104, 53-101, 60-94 and 66-88. In the 51 games under Murtaugh in 1957, they did a complete about face and went 26-25. Finished in 2nd place in 1958. World Series champs 1960. Won 93 games in 1962. Left after 1964. Came back for 2 years 1970-71 going to NLCS and then winning another WS. Came back 1973-76 winning division 1974-75 and finishing 2nd in 1976 despite 92 wins. Managed all or parts of 15 seasons and had only 3 losing records as mgr in that time. Considering how bad they had been for about a decade when he took over in 1957 and how he immediately turned them into winners, he did an amazing job.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
Me being me. I have to say it:
Murtaugh might not have been the only guy who managed some fantastic players, but.....
We know a couple who didn't, doesn't, and won't.
)
Carry on.
Murtaugh might not have been the only guy who managed some fantastic players, but.....
We know a couple who didn't, doesn't, and won't.
)Carry on.
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Bobster21
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
We always associate 1971 with Clemente but Murtaugh did a masterful job all season. It was Stennett's rookie partial season, Clines' 1st full season. Sangy, Cash and Robertson were only in their 2nd full seasons. Oliver and Hebner in their 3rd. Alley was hurt a good deal of the season including the WS. Davalillo was a journeyman whose days of playing everyday were behind him. Maz was near the end of his career as a backup. Murtaugh got a lot of mileage out of using Robertson and Pagan vs some LHPs and Oliver and Hebner vs some RHPs.
Murtaugh had 2 top starters in Ellis and Blass and got the most he could out of Johnson, Moose, Walker, rookie Kison and reliever/spot starter Briles. His only LHP in the BP was Veale who was near the end of his career and had a 6.99 ERA (despite a record of 6-0). Ramon Hernandez was only a Sept callup that year. The only other LHP on the staff was Walker and he was only used 4 times in relief besides his 24 starts.
Ellis went down after game 1 of the WS and Murtaugh ended up using 6 different starting pitchers in the 7 games. He also used Veale in just 1 game for 0.2 innings and had nothing but RH relievers the rest of the series. Nellie Briles made a spot start in game 5 and pitched a 2-hit shutout. The WS was supposed to showcase the Orioles' 4 20-game winners. But instead, Murtaugh's deft handling of his staff resulted in the Orioles scoring only 8 runs on 21 hits in the final 5 games (an avg of 1.6 runs on 4.2 hits).
Murtaugh had 2 top starters in Ellis and Blass and got the most he could out of Johnson, Moose, Walker, rookie Kison and reliever/spot starter Briles. His only LHP in the BP was Veale who was near the end of his career and had a 6.99 ERA (despite a record of 6-0). Ramon Hernandez was only a Sept callup that year. The only other LHP on the staff was Walker and he was only used 4 times in relief besides his 24 starts.
Ellis went down after game 1 of the WS and Murtaugh ended up using 6 different starting pitchers in the 7 games. He also used Veale in just 1 game for 0.2 innings and had nothing but RH relievers the rest of the series. Nellie Briles made a spot start in game 5 and pitched a 2-hit shutout. The WS was supposed to showcase the Orioles' 4 20-game winners. But instead, Murtaugh's deft handling of his staff resulted in the Orioles scoring only 8 runs on 21 hits in the final 5 games (an avg of 1.6 runs on 4.2 hits).
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ArnoldRothstein
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
A couple things about Murtaugh:
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
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Bobster21
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
04372B2A2921172A312D3631202C2B450 wrote: A couple things about Murtaugh:
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
Actually it was 15 for the 1960 Yankees.
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
Actually it was 15 for the 1960 Yankees.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
0D202D3C3B2A3D7D7E4F0 wrote: A couple things about Murtaugh:
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
Actually it was 15 for the 1960 Yankees.
Either that, or if he hadn't taken his times off?
1. By the late Sixties, about one in every eight starts was by a guy who's now in the Hall of Fame. If you didn't have one of those guys, you were at a tremendous disadvantage over the long season, and Murtaugh never had one of them;
2. I think if Murtaugh had moved around, he'd be almost revered today. Turned around the Pirates 1957, turned around the Twins in 1969, turned around the Royals in 1975 gets a lot more attention than, "off-and-on again Pirate manager."
As a curiosity, both teams that he faced in the Series entered the Series with 14-game winning streaks.
Actually it was 15 for the 1960 Yankees.
Either that, or if he hadn't taken his times off?
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
I also think Murtaugh should get points for having the courage to field the first all black/latino team in MLB history.
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Bobster21
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
4B6C6744090 wrote: I also think Murtaugh should get points for having the courage to field the first all black/latino team in MLB history.
I recall Murtaugh at the time saying he didn't even realize it. I believe him. In fact, more than 1 month earlier on 7/24 he fielded a lineup with Oliver, Stennett, Pagan, Hernandez, Stargell, Clines and Clemente. But on that day it happened to be Blass's turn to pitch. Ellis was the team's only black starter. Robertson was the regular 1Bman, starting 126 games that year. Hebner was the primary 3Bman starting 93 games. Alley started 97 games at SS. So a totally non-white lineup was unlikely given the roster. And most teams of that era and prior years had mostly white starting pitchers and a number of starting white position players. So for any team, a totally black/Latino lineup was unlikely unless the pitcher happened to be black/Latino and all white starters sat out the game.
The historic lineup on 9/1/70 was 1 of only 4 of Ellis' 30 starts that year that did not have Robertson at 1B. The other 3 starts all had Alley at SS, two included Hebner at 3B and one also had Maz at 2B. But on 9/1, Robertson was benched in a 3 for 19 slump. He didn't start any games from 8/31 until 9/5. Alley was hurt and Hebner sat against LHP Woodie Fryman. So it was just the most logical lineup coinciding with Ellis' turn to start. Murtaugh said the significance of the lineup never occurred to him until it was pointed out to him. And of course if it had been Ellis' turn in the rotation instead of Blass on 7/24, it would have happened sooner.
I recall Murtaugh at the time saying he didn't even realize it. I believe him. In fact, more than 1 month earlier on 7/24 he fielded a lineup with Oliver, Stennett, Pagan, Hernandez, Stargell, Clines and Clemente. But on that day it happened to be Blass's turn to pitch. Ellis was the team's only black starter. Robertson was the regular 1Bman, starting 126 games that year. Hebner was the primary 3Bman starting 93 games. Alley started 97 games at SS. So a totally non-white lineup was unlikely given the roster. And most teams of that era and prior years had mostly white starting pitchers and a number of starting white position players. So for any team, a totally black/Latino lineup was unlikely unless the pitcher happened to be black/Latino and all white starters sat out the game.
The historic lineup on 9/1/70 was 1 of only 4 of Ellis' 30 starts that year that did not have Robertson at 1B. The other 3 starts all had Alley at SS, two included Hebner at 3B and one also had Maz at 2B. But on 9/1, Robertson was benched in a 3 for 19 slump. He didn't start any games from 8/31 until 9/5. Alley was hurt and Hebner sat against LHP Woodie Fryman. So it was just the most logical lineup coinciding with Ellis' turn to start. Murtaugh said the significance of the lineup never occurred to him until it was pointed out to him. And of course if it had been Ellis' turn in the rotation instead of Blass on 7/24, it would have happened sooner.
Danny Murtaugh- HOFer?
I talked with some fans of other teams about this a long time ago. Their thoughts were interesting regarding Murtaugh as a HOF manager.
1. Regardless that the Pirates won, it's almost as if 1960 isn't counted for any Pirate other than Mazeroski, who they feel made the HOF simply because of the HR. To this day, people can't believe the Yankees lost, their minds focused on the 3 blowout wins. In other words, Murtaugh was "lucky".
2. He was in and out as Pirates manager. There isn't that consistent, long term stretch to judge him on.
3. The Pirates were 1-9 in the NLCS in the 70, 74, and 75, and swept twice by their supposed "rival", the Cincinnati Reds and Sparky Anderson, and dominated by the Dodgers and Walter Alston 3-1. Those were a couple of contemporaries to which Murtaugh is measured. Alston, if you discount 1954 because he wouldn't exactly be a contemporary, had 3 pennants and 3 WS wins. Anderson had 2 WS wins, same as Murtaugh, but his were back to back, and they also appeared in 2 other WS. Three of those four appearances were at the expense of the Pirates, two of them the previously mentioned sweeps with Danny at the helm.
No, he's not a HOF manager. A Pirates HOF member sure, not MLB.
1. Regardless that the Pirates won, it's almost as if 1960 isn't counted for any Pirate other than Mazeroski, who they feel made the HOF simply because of the HR. To this day, people can't believe the Yankees lost, their minds focused on the 3 blowout wins. In other words, Murtaugh was "lucky".
2. He was in and out as Pirates manager. There isn't that consistent, long term stretch to judge him on.
3. The Pirates were 1-9 in the NLCS in the 70, 74, and 75, and swept twice by their supposed "rival", the Cincinnati Reds and Sparky Anderson, and dominated by the Dodgers and Walter Alston 3-1. Those were a couple of contemporaries to which Murtaugh is measured. Alston, if you discount 1954 because he wouldn't exactly be a contemporary, had 3 pennants and 3 WS wins. Anderson had 2 WS wins, same as Murtaugh, but his were back to back, and they also appeared in 2 other WS. Three of those four appearances were at the expense of the Pirates, two of them the previously mentioned sweeps with Danny at the helm.
No, he's not a HOF manager. A Pirates HOF member sure, not MLB.